Alliances and Improved Diplomacy

**Moosferatu** · August 28, 2006, 11:10 AM

I'm hoping there is going to be strong alliances within this mod, much stronger than the original game, provided the factions were allied in the books. E.g, Gondor+Rohan, Easterlings and Haradrim. Will factions also be able to betray others aswell as sticking with other factions?

E.g, Rhun declares war on the north of Mordor, and through diplomacy the Haradrim are all too willing to attack Mordor from the south.

**Zombimode** · August 28, 2006, 02:49 PM

Remember, the mod doesnt cover the timeframe of the books, so those past alliances doesnt have to mean anything.

**Silent** · August 28, 2006, 09:06 PM

Im sorry but... Rohan is obligated to keep their alliance with Gondor... i seriously SERIOUSLY doubt they would EVER betray it, Gondor gave them their land, and Gondor could easily smote Rohan if they decided to betray Gondor. Plus i doubt Eomer would betray Aragorn.

**Matty_P** · August 28, 2006, 09:29 PM

^^^point!^^^

...is it not smite?

**Arakorn** · August 29, 2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Silent

Im sorry but... Rohan is obligated to keep their alliance with Gondor... i seriously SERIOUSLY doubt they would EVER betray it, Gondor gave them their land, and Gondor could easily smote Rohan if they decided to betray Gondor. Plus i doubt Eomer would betray Aragorn.

Are you kidding me? It'll go the other way!

:tooth:

Anyway, as some guys already said, it's quite hard to do that in the RTW engine, but Rohan and Gondor will of course start allied. But playing the Corsair Invasion Mini-Campaign BETA I've found that I can, as RK, ally myself with both factions (even though only for a while) and then the other faction declares war on me and that faction will get the wrath of both me and my ally unleashed upon them!

But then my ally betrays me and the other factions ally...

Anyhow, we will of course do our best to keep strong alliances, according to our storyline, so Rohan and Gondor will have the strongest available alliance (with strongest I mean in the txt-file the relation...)

**Maedros** · September 05, 2006, 09:51 AM

Firstly well done!This mod is amazing!Your skins are perfect and your map of middle earth is great too!Well done!I just cant wait for the release!
What you are trying to accompilsh is really hard.As far as i know there isnt any source from tolkien about the forth age...And the way the storyline ends its pretty difficult to create another big war for about the next 200 years or maybe 300.So the campaign should begin after at least 3 centuries.
Firstly there could never be a war between the elves and Arnor or Gondor.For three ages neither
the 3 houses of edain neither dunedain ever made war with the elves.Only Numenorian in the second age under the guidance of Sauron tried to attack Valinor but again their hate was against the Valar not the elves of Valinor.Then a war between Rohan and Gondor would be totally unrealistic.Since the oath of Kirion and Eorl from 2500 until the end of the third era 3020 neither Rohan nor Gondor did any hostility against each other.And in the end of the war of the ring their alliance seems too be stronger than ever before.Tolkien's world is a world of bravery,pride and valour but also friendship and honour where strong alliances remain.
I suggest these :
1) Unified kingdom - Rohan - elves permanent alliances
2) Easterlings of Run and haradrim permanent alliances
3)Orcs and Dwarves neutral
4)A perhaps a good idea would be to create extra hipothetical factions in the lands of Mirianath and Enedweith.The people who leave there would normally create their own kingdoms.

**Lusted** · August 29, 2006, 05:58 AM

Plus i doubt Eomer would betray Aragorn.

The mod is set after the death of both of them.

**boofhead** · August 29, 2006, 06:01 AM

Strong alliances? You are talking RTW hardcode are you not?

No matter how 'strong' you set it, it won't last long!

**Ciaran S** · September 05, 2006, 10:28 AM

There´s a logical fallacy in that: Assuming something won´t happen because it didn´t happen in the past is at best circumstances like driving a car using the rear-view mirror exclusively for navigation.
Apart from that, as you have already pointed out, there actually is a precedence for a war between Elves and Men, not to mention the wars Men fought between themselves - the civil wars of Numenor and Gondor fill a large part of the appendices.
The way I see it - you´ll not need to agree with it, of course - the state of the world at the end of the third age is mostly due to the persons holding the responsibilities, politics in Middle Earth are a very personal business. It needs only little change in the persons who hold power to completely shift the balance. What if, say, a famine were to happen in Rohan and a charismatic demagogue could convince people they are starving because of old Rohan has been given only the less fertile lands that Gondor didn´t want? Not to mention that accepting aid (even provided it´s given, as I assume) is always humbling. Perhaps not the most original scenario, but can you dismiss it out of hand?
I´ll not go into the fact that there are certain limits in what modders can do about certain aspects.

**WImPyTjeH** · September 05, 2006, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Ciaran S

There´s a logical fallacy in that: Assuming something won´t happen because it didn´t happen in the past is at best circumstances like driving a car using the rear-view mirror exclusively for navigation.
Apart from that, as you have already pointed out, there actually is a precedence for a war between Elves and Men, not to mention the wars Men fought between themselves - the civil wars of Numenor and Gondor fill a large part of the appendices.
The way I see it - you´ll not need to agree with it, of course - the state of the world at the end of the third age is mostly due to the persons holding the responsibilities, politics in Middle Earth are a very personal business. It needs only little change in the persons who hold power to completely shift the balance. What if, say, a famine were to happen in Rohan and a charismatic demagogue could convince people they are starving because of old Rohan has been given only the less fertile lands that Gondor didn´t want? Not to mention that accepting aid (even provided it´s given, as I assume) is always humbling. Perhaps not the most original scenario, but can you dismiss it out of hand?
I´ll not go into the fact that there are certain limits in what modders can do about certain aspects.

ah, we have a typo palantir

**Maedros** · September 05, 2006, 03:31 PM

There isn't even one mod for Total war where diplomacy between the factions is simulated well.
And when I say well I dont mean perfect , let's just mention Civilization4 where things are more tolerable.Of course this could me much harder in the Tolkien world not to say impossible with the
tools a modder has right now.
As for what you said I (surprise!

)totally disagree.We are not talking about the recent past but for 3000 years and more.Lets say that if you make the same walk every morning for all your life you will be able to make the same walk at night with all the lights closed.We are talking about the whole mythology of Tolkien where there are certain rules.And Tolkien's world is not so chaotic as the real one.Enemies remain enemies and friends remain friends for thousand of years...Yes civil wars have happend in all races but it doent have to do with people but individuals.Wars of succession mostly.In all the great wars where fate of middle earth was decided there where always the bad guys and the good guys.In the days where evil had arisen
all the world polarized in two powers.Morgoth and Eonwe, Sauron and Gil-Galand,Sauron and Gandalf.Generally it has always been a game of power between Valar and Melkor(Morgoth).
so why not making the game exactly like that!Two strong leagues one of the darkness and one of the light fighting each other for the Middle earth with 3 or 4 neutral races to change sides.
It's easier and less complicated and by far more realistic.And there could easily be written a senario where a new Sauron could rise again and try to dominate Middle Earth!
Anyway whatever the result may be I will surely play the game!The demo was fantastic!I am looking forward to it.I just don't want to be playing the campaign as Rohan and suddenly the orcs ally with the elves and the gondorian and declare war to me.That could be Total Chaos I think...Valar would give up I think or better burn middle - earth by themselves!!!

**Lusted** · September 06, 2006, 06:53 AM

Well the team(i used to be part of it) has definitely put a lot of thought into the mod don't worry, the elves and orcs will be very hostile to one another so they shouldn't ally, but you never know qwith the TW engine. Plus this is the TW engine: Total War, i personally wouldn't want a mod with 2 set alliances, i want to change things, even if it does go against Tolkiens world.

**Zombimode** · September 06, 2006, 07:50 AM

@ Maedros
I think you will be not comfortable with the whole concept of the mod.
Just read the first two points of the FAQ:
http://www.thefourthage.org/faq.php

I, for myself, am very pleased that the FATW team has decided to make a Total War game, not a Total Boring.

**Maedros** · September 06, 2006, 08:35 AM

Ok perhaps you are right...It's your work anyway.And I totally trust you!Yes i hadn't read this faq.But really are there any sources for the fourth age?What was that about "new shadow".I am not aware of this though I am a real maniac for about 7 years with Tolkien?Could you give me a link?Anyway does anyone know what happened with the two blue wizards?They never came back to Valinor.Only Gandalf did.And Tolkien in a few hand-written scripts said that possibly they were both corrupted by Sauron!They are of the vanyar class.They are extremely powerful spirits who could have followed the way of Saruman!And they would certainly have the power to control the orcs.Just a suggestion again!!!Sorry if I am a pain in the ash!!!