Will facing large factions be scary in Rome 2?

[Kinjo]

We know there will be a few large factions in the game, my question is will they be a challenge to face or will they be push overs like in Shogun 2?

To me fighting a small faction feels no different then fighting a large faction pretty much since M2TW, the 20 unit stack limit probably has something to do with it imo that and the poor Ai.

What I'm hoping for is the larger empires will be able to muster some massive armies or the amount of regions you control plays a part in how many armies you can raise. So when facing such powerful factions you will need alliances in place to even out the odds. I hate how large factions currently piece meal its armies to you by only throwing 1-2 stacks at a time at you, they should instead come at you in force with 3-5 stacks so you really feel the weight of the faction.

If CA can manage that I think it would make campaigns more enjoyable and it would make you think twice before going to war with a big faction without preparing.

What do you guys think?

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

It has not been scary since M1TW. I remember in M1TW how the Almohads always overrun Spain and then you would see how they gathered stack after stack in the Pyrinees in preparation of a massive invasion, they could have as much as 30 full stacks there...

[SturmChurro]

I know what you mean. In SHOGUN 2 once you destroyed those two stacks you can literally just steamroll half their territories before any real opposition meets you to lose again! On the seas though, this is a much different story. The ai has so many damn fleet stacks, the most, at least I, can really hope for is protecting my ports.

Maybe not necessarily increase stack spam for land troops, but make the ai smarter with what they have.

[Aymer de Valence]

Yeah I agree. I haven't been TRULY scared in a Total War game since a campaign I had as Armenia I had in December 2010 when Pontus and Scythia kept sending ENDLESS stacks against me. I had family members dying in battle nearly every other turn, and I couldn't gather an army to expand without leaving my home region undefended.....by turn 100 I still had wooden walls in my settlements, I just didn't have the money to expand as 90% was spent on retraining my troops. By the time New Year came, I was making some progress into Scythia, and I can't remember why Pontus stopped invading me, but you know, there's a reason I remember the exact month and year of that campaign and it's because of how FUN it was.

Total War games aren't hard at all these days, and in fact the battles are just predictable. I have a feeling Rome II will be different though

[CnConrad]

This is an idea I could get behind.

[torongill]

The last time I was truly scared was when playing the beginning of RSII I think. Hannibal to the South, Celtic invasions from the north. Other than that practically never. In fact in EB I stopped playing because of sheer boredom and exhaustion - the Seleucids would send stack after stack against me, but only one at a time(undoubtedly to some extent due to the terrain - I just wanted to make them stop attacking me... An exercise in futility )

[Lancy]

The risk style map in MTW1 made things easier for the AI, and the campaign much harder

In every game since RTW it's just an inevitable march to victory regardless of difficulty level.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Well In Shogun 2 it was actually possible to lose, but it was more because of lack of initial resources at the first few turns and it was not scary like the late game harmageddon in M1TW when the Mongols and the Almohads came crushing down on you from one side each with 30 stacks each...

[TsarGrey]

It might be more realistic if neighbouring AI would actually react who are you waging war against. Let's say, you play as Pontus and Seleucids declare war on you. Now, all around you, Armenia, Pergamon, Rhodes, etc. get scared of their masses and cut off relations and trade agreements you have with them, causing your economy collapse. Even few of your own generals defect or rebel, reducing manpower and lands you have.
And now, Seleucids send their stacks. .

[BeastG33]

Whoever mentioned being scared of AI navies is spot on. If they didn't spend so much damn money building and upkeeping massive and pointless fleets, maybe they'd be a little scarier on land.

Oh sure, blockade my ports all you want as my ground forces steamroll unopposed through your empire....

[Greve Af Göteborg]

I think that we should see more multi-stack simultaneous invasions done by the AI (both by the attacking AI and any of his allies that helps him).
The AI would gather up his armies and station them near the border (or prepare the fleets if it's a naval invasion) and prepare before unleashing everything.

[Ichon]

Biggest problem with AI not being scary is diplomacy. AI even in Shogun 2 would be in multiple wars with no priorities so even if you fight a faction 3 times as large usually you outnumber any armies you face. Only twice in Shogun 2 campaigns did I ever face more than 2 armies from same faction. Takeda and Hojo in different campaigns invaded with 3 full armies all in range of each other... that was the only interesting challenge I remember facing from a single faction since I had only 1.5 armies able to respond and trying to draw apart Takeda armies or get them to attack on the most favorable terrain took about 8 turns of careful maneuvering (-2 castles 1 quickly recaptured). Takeda at the time was only in 1 other war and had 2 strong alliances... after finally defeating those 3 armies in the next 3 turns 2 groups of 2 armies came and if Takeda had only managed to coordinate 4 turns better I would have faced a real challenge. AI certainly has the resources to be a challenge but poor diplomacy and poor coordination of different armies wastes those resources. Multiple AI invading at the same time can be a problem but that very rarely happens in Shogun 2 if you as player takes any care of diplomacy.

[Kinjo]

I think that we should see more multi-stack simultaneous invasions done by the AI (both by the attacking AI and any of his allies that helps him).
The AI would gather up his armies and station them near the border (or prepare the fleets if it's a naval invasion) and prepare before unleashing everything.

I hope so because the current way the Ai manages it's armies is really weak. What I would really like to see is a large factions moving massive hoards of 3-5 stacks around the map in supporting range of each other. This way we can see some epic clashes like the battle of Raphia or Cannae were you see almost all of the eggs in one basket type clashes. Sure there can still be small raiding parties running around here and there for skirmishes but ultimately it should lead to an epic clash at some point. Lets face it the Ai will probably never live up to our expectation so numbers is the Ai's only hope of beating an average player imo. This is something we should see on normal settings because who wants to play a cheating Ai that has an endless war chest.

Biggest problem with AI not being scary is diplomacy. AI even in Shogun 2 would be in multiple wars with no priorities so even if you fight a faction 3 times as large usually you outnumber any armies you face. Only twice in Shogun 2 campaigns did I ever face more than 2 armies from same faction. Takeda and Hojo in different campaigns invaded with 3 full armies all in range of each other... that was the only interesting challenge I remember facing from a single faction since I had only 1.5 armies able to respond and trying to draw apart Takeda armies or get them to attack on the most favorable terrain took about 8 turns of careful maneuvering (-2 castles 1 quickly recaptured). Takeda at the time was only in 1 other war and had 2 strong alliances... after finally defeating those 3 armies in the next 3 turns 2 groups of 2 armies came and if Takeda had only managed to coordinate 4 turns better I would have faced a real challenge. AI certainly has the resources to be a challenge but poor diplomacy and poor coordination of different armies wastes those resources. Multiple AI invading at the same time can be a problem but that very rarely happens in Shogun 2 if you as player takes any care of diplomacy.

You are spot on the Ai is usually waging too many wars at once and are completely overextended leaving their borders undefended. As far as faction priorities go numero uno should be self preservation and overall faction survivability.

It has not been scary since M1TW. I remember in M1TW how the Almohads always overrun Spain and then you would see how they gathered stack after stack in the Pyrinees in preparation of a massive invasion, they could have as much as 30 full stacks there...

I had some really large battles in M2TW after the Kingdoms expansion came out, I even had a couple of 3v3 armies all on the battlefield at once trying to stop the 5-7 stacks of Mongols. Just as long as you had unlimited men on the battle field set to true you could have a total of 8 stacks all on the battle field at once just as the armies were close enough.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

I had some really large battles in M2TW after the Kingdoms expansion came out, I even had a couple of 3v3 armies all on the battlefield at once trying to stop the 5-7 stacks of Mongols. Just as long as you had unlimited men on the battle field set to true you could have a total of 8 stacks all on the battle field at once just as the armies were close enough.

I was talking about Medieval 1! The original and best of the series:

[maxlurifax]

I was talking about Medieval 1! The original and best of the series

Oh I think you mean this game

[Sun Jetzu]

Oh I think you mean this game

I think you mean this game

[Steel*Faith]

Creating and upkeeping a strong navy is going to be very important for certain factions I think. Not only will it grant you large bonuses to your income through trade, but the best way to hit Rome is by landing assaults directly into Sicily and mainland Italy; not to mention quick access to Carthage, Egypt, Iberia, Asia Minor etc. Opposed to long marches through rough terrain and many enemy territories, you can just bypass all that with your Navy much faster and more efficiently.

I really hope certain factions will make you think hard before committing a campaign against them. When the time comes to choose to fight Rome, or become a servant ally to them, I hope the choice is tense and difficult to make due to the challenge that will be facing you from either choice you make. I think every faction should be a hard choice to decide to either ally or war against them, but Rome being the hardest of them all. Hopefully the AI will be manipulating and offer you alliances, only to stab you in the back when you are vulnerable but to prevent things from being predictable, some alliances shouldn't be broken by the AI and give you the opportunity to maintain healthy long-standing relations with certain factions as well; this way you never can know 100% if your allies will stay loyal to you or will betray you, so there will always be a uneasy feeling in the campaign.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Hopefully the AI will be manipulating and offer you alliances, only to stab you in the back when you are vulnerable but to prevent things from being predictable, some alliances shouldn't be broken by the AI and give you the opportunity to maintain healthy long-standing relations with certain factions as well; this way you never can know 100% if your allies will stay loyal to you or will betray you, so there will always be a uneasy feeling in the campaign.

Eh that's exactly how the AI were in all Total War games prior to ETW and it for sure was not popular with players who considered it a major flaw, but you actually want random diplomacy and pointless alliances back?

[Steel*Faith]

Eh that's exactly how the AI were in all Total War games prior to ETW and it for sure was not popular with players who considered it a major flaw, but you actually want random diplomacy and pointless alliances back?

Yes, I do want it back, but refined. I'd like there to be some way to greatly increase your relationships with your allies, to ensure the alliance stand firm. I found most requests from the AI to create and maintain an alliance to be pretty unreasonable, like they were always trying to extort me for something, instead of realizing that forming an alliance is the best thing for both of us to defeat a dangerous invading force. Many times I ask for an alliance with an AI faction, their demands would be to take the majority of the gold I had, or even some of my territories - that's pretty damn insulting. So I'm talking about the AI acting with some reason, and not like they're Al Capone coming into my store and demanding protection money from me, so some bad guys don't come in and break my legs and burn my store down, that's not really diplomatic behavior, unless you're a Roman maybe?

If I'm playing as Greece, I really want to make sure I can maintain a good relationship with Carthage or Egypt, because in order for us to take Rome out of the picture, it's going to be majorly difficult to do so while fighting among each other. Obviously helping each other through trade, exchanging intelligence, and military unity is going to increase our chances of defeating powerful enemies like Rome.

That being said, I want to AI to betray me only if it really was in their best interest to do so, but at the same time, I want the game to recognize healthy long lasting alliances, or even increased loyalty between certain nations. Think of a game like the Sims, where you need to reach a certain level before you gain something, or before someone becomes your friend; I want diplomacy to work - almost like a mini-game - where if you accomplish enough tasks and good gestures (helping a faction when they're in trouble, aiding one of their cities during a siege, giving them money when they're in debt etc), then that faction will reach a point where they are much more likely to stay loyal in an alliance with you, and do the same to help you when you need it. So maybe there could be something like a "Diplomatic Alliance" of multiple level - let's say 1-to-10 - and if you reach a level of 10, you can be pretty certain you and your ally have done enough for each other that when **** hits the fan, they're going to stick by you, because you stuck by them.

[Splatterfox]

Yes, I totally agree to you. You could also combine very HUGE amount of troops with a new demoralization system. For example if you ambush a Roman army consisting of 20.000 men with 500 brave Gauls, you could make some brave winnings but the overwhelming power of the enemy should be a omnipresent demoralization-factor of the small army in this battle. Of course, with extremely trained, loyal and brave Elite-Units like the Spartan Royal Guards or something this effect would be strongly reduced or even neutralized, but weak and scared peasants would not run into a massive full-trained army without hesitation. So maybe parts of your units flee even because they make direkt combat-contact. (Of course in this cases the power of the enemy must be really overwhelming, else it would give the more powerful one an unfair advantage).