Editing the money script to slow down the Yellow and Gray death?

[War lord]

So the title is pretty descriptive. Do you guys think removing the bonuses these guys get, and giving more money to their neighbors would stop them turning to the tedious Juggernaut one or both of these factions tend to become?

For me right now all of my campaigns come to an end 30 years after I get a declaration of war from one or both of these guys. They have infinite numbers, few serious enemies to stop them fighting the player all the time and plentiful access to Europa Barbarorum's incredibly broken Phalanx Pikemen units.

Today I finally figured out that the reason for this is that they kill much faster then the other units in the game, though I'd like to hear your theories on that aswell.

[Stath's]

As I see it:

1) Only 1 of them becomes "Death". Never have i seen them both becoming huge.

2) I like to have a huge empire as an enemy.

3) About Phalanxes, i don't see them as broken or too overpowered. They present a nice challenge as an enemy.

Have you reached to these conclusions of yours by playing 1 specific faction or many?

[War lord]

As I see it:

1) Only 1 of them becomes "Death". Never have i seen them both becoming huge.

2) I like to have a huge empire as an enemy.

3) About Phalanxes, i don't see them as broken or too overpowered. They present a nice challenge as an enemy.

Have you reached to these conclusions of yours by playing 1 specific faction or many?

I've faced Phalanx as Getia, Romans, Macedon, KH and Saka. I believe that is an accurate spread of unit types to judge the power of one particular unit type, particularly vs the Historical weakness of an unsupported Sarissa Phalanx caught out of formation. If you like the challenge of fighting two ahistorically powerful factions using ahistorically powerful units fighting in an ahistorical alliance against the player, that's you. I want balance without having to abuse FD.

It's not that I'm saying that Phalanx are unbeatable, just that they are by far the most effective Melee units in EB, far too effective vs History. Historically, once the Successors abandoned the combined arms strategy of Alexander in favour of massed Pike formations they lost heavily to the more flexible Roman Legions.

In my opinion standard Phalanx Pikemen should fight like the Militia version does now, and Elites like the Silver Shields should fight like standard Phalanx Pikemen.

EDIT: Again, you're missing the point, I can get Heroic victories all day. That I have to worry about them ganging up on me instead of them constantly fighting over Antioch like they should be is the issue.

[Bladvak]

The best advice I can give (don't take it the wrong way) is to improve your gaming skills. Both the Ptollies and the AS are manageable, even on VH/VH. And no, the bonuses that these two factions have are somewhat appropriate for their historical positions: both were very strong (superpowers of the antiquity for at least a hundred years) in their own right, true heirs to Alexander the Great's empire.

That being said, here are some tips to help you manage these :
- play as Carthage (which has Elite African Phalanx, a relatively affordable unit that is almost at par with the elite phalanxes for Ptollies and AS). Carthage is one of the best factions overall, being very easy for it to destroy both of them, in time. By playing as a faction at par with these, you will learn what works best (and have the money and resources to experiment). Spawning 3 Elite African Phalanx units from North African provinces per turn is a sure way to have more than enough for wars on 5 fronts, 2 of them against Ptollies and AS... (I can give you a save, if you like, year 230ish)
- learn to distroy enemy phalanxes, by using strong infantry on guard mode from the front, while repeatedly charging or attacking them from the rear, preferably with armour-penetration units or high lethality ones (Samnites Milites from southern Italy and mercenary Enoci Curoas are two examples for this). Or, if you have the money, use heavy cavalry to charge them from the rear.
- late-game, use elite units with special functions to tackle anything that either P or AS throws at you (as Carthage - use the elite african phalanx combined with iberian assault infantry, as Rome just use the javelin or pila units in huge numbers - pedites extraordinares are the best suited imho)

- using the smaller factions, you will have to find chokepoints or weaknesses that you can exploit, depending on the faction or on how you are playing. if you search this forum, you will see some AAR or guides on how to handle playing with the smaller factions.

if you need more advices, describe what exactly your position is and we will gladly help you.

[Stath's]

Well, i can't agree since i like the current structure of the game regarding Seleukids and Ptolemies. If they did not manage to get big-huge, then after some turns you would have no major opponent and the game would be boring. The same would happen if their units would not be as powerful as they are now.

[War lord]

Well, i can't agree since i like the current structure of the game regarding Seleukids and Ptolemies. If they did not manage to get big-huge, then after some turns you would have no major opponent and the game would be boring. The same would happen if their units would not be as powerful as they are now.

I disagree, if Seleucids and Ptolemies were weaker, Saba, Parthia, Hayasdan, Pontus, Bactria and Saka might have a chance and we'd be able to fight something more interesting than two big empires who use basically the same units over and over again. Rome and Carthage manage to be credible threats, even if Rome does spam PE way too much. I think the debate here is Gaming vs Historical behavior and we know which one this mod aims for. I don't need the Grox in my alternate history.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

EB 1 is unrealistic in that it allows the player and the AI to recruit unlimited numbers of Macedonian phalangites and heavy cavalry. There was no way to prevent this in the RTW game engine.

Historically, both Seleucids and Ptolemies were chronically short of ethnic Macedonians due to unending warfare, which severely reduced their ability to recover quickly from a massive battlefield defeat, made them short of heavy cavalry, and forced them to employ native Iranian and Egyptian troops trained as Macedonians and these highly-trained troops sometimes rebelled against their ethnically Macedonian rulers, making the rulers frightened of recruiting more of them. This is why Rome beat them - they couldn't replace their lost phalanxes quickly enough to avoid losing the war with Rome, whereas lost Roman legionaries were much more easily replaced.

EB 2 will be much more realistic than EB 1 in that it is possible to limit recruitment of rare units in the MTW engine.

But with EB 1, it's much more difficult to stop the Seleucids and Ptolemies spamming elite phalanxes as if they grew on trees. The only solution I can think of is removing the ability to recruit elite phalanxes from those factions completely, forcing the Seleucids and Ptolemies to rely on native troops and mercenaries.

[Zeybek]

Also If IIRC the phalanx formation in RTW has some hard-coded advantages, such as an absurd resistance to archers compared to other equally armoured units and other massive defensive bonuses. These are coded in the .exe file which modders aren't allowed to access unfortunately.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I've modded all pike phalanxes in my EB installation, reducing their shield strength value by 3 points, taking them from 5 down to 2. Phalanxes have only very small shields compared to hoplites, so their shield value was far too high. This change makes it possible to kill phalangites with arrow fire from the front even after they are in the phalanx formation.

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

The Phalanx are not overpowered I have manage to defeat them many time with the Romans and Carthage. With the Romans is pretty easy is you avoid Close frontal attacks and harass them with the Javelins and Arrows and flanking them with your Hastati or Principes. My only gripe with them is that arrows tend to do minimal damage to them and that sometimes annoys me.

[War lord]

I don't have a problem with the missile resistance, the same Formation fought the Persians under Alexander after all. But a non Elite Phalanx should be screwed if it gets flanked, right now they fight till 3/4 of them are dead. That's fine for Royal Guards, but not Mercenaries.

[demagogos nicator]

EB 1 is unrealistic in that it allows the player and the AI to recruit unlimited numbers of Macedonian phalangites and heavy cavalry. There was no way to prevent this in the RTW game engine.

There is a way, just increase their recruitment times to 4 or more turns. Mods like Arthurian TW or Chivalry TW use this to represent the decivness of battles in that era and it works well in my opinion. Allso RTR VII uses long recruitment times for most elite units (40 turns=10 years) to represent the time needed to train a truly hardened elite unit.