Technicals questions on programm R2TW - Graphic system - Dx11 - Bump mapping - Displacement mapping - multicore

[super_newbie_pro]

Many people spoke of events, factions, multiplayer, map etc. ... But can we speak about technical ?

If you have questions about Dx11, coding, c++, maybe can we use this topic to speak.

I begin : I would like ask a question to CA devs : why they dont use Bump mapping and displacement mapping to increase the realism of rocks and the soil / ground ? ( http://www.nvidia.com/object/tessellation.html )

Now, with screen of the game :



And the displacement mapping :







The question : Why CA dont implant that in the game ? Is that because it's too complicated to implement ? It consumes too much system resources and if yes, why not include an option to activ / desactiv it ? Too long to go to the planned schedule ?

Other point : multicore, we had read here and there that CA had difficulties to improve multicore management (core 4-8). Is it due to the engine which is difficult to handle in this way? Or is that a motor must be rewritten to natively support it fully ?

[Petroniu]

You just killed yourself with this post man. Those pictures are pre-alpha and that is why you can't actually see the graphical quality and also CA does use all those Dx11 features since Shogun 2 TW.
Get ready for everyone coming to tell you just that.
Plus, that kind of features are for the people who can afford a computer that can run all those stuff and still enjoy a nice FPS so you won't see many coming here and saying: "Yeah CA, why can't I see proper rocks on the ground?"

[dom385]

It seems like an unnecessary level of detail for an rts, I mean imagine the resources it would use! I think that combined with severl thousand soldiers fighting at once would be more than most machines could handle.

[Little Legionaire]

Pre Alpha this and alpha that is yada yada I think until the release this is gonna be the major argument when it comes to talk something ask something.

We're only three months far from the release and for gods sake CA show us something fresh and not alpha please. Otherwise our hands stand tied until the 3rd of September.

[super_newbie_pro]

Pre Alpha this and alpha that is yada yada I think until the release this is gonna be the major argument when it comes to talk something ask something.

We're only three months far from the release and for gods sake CA show us something fresh and not alpha please. Otherwise our hands stand tied until the 3rd of September.

Exactly. You perfectly summed. That's why there is the question : why ?

[musketeer101]

Yup, it was in Shogun 2. If you have your graphics at SM 3 (High) or higher, you can see the displacement mapping on castle walls. I guess for pre-alpha footage they wouldn't have added any complex stuff. Remember how Shogun 2 was released with no DX 11? Hopefully it won't happen for RTW 2, seeing as the gameplay videos LOOK like DX 11.

[CaesarOfSeleucid]

I hope TWRII will support multicore. If that is supported a lot of more people could play it better I think.

[super_newbie_pro]

I hope TWRII will support multicore. If that is supported a lot of more people could play it better I think.

Yes it will but the real question is not if the programm can do it, but how, if he can use full 2 core, full 4 core, more ? we dont know.

Remember how Shogun 2 was released with no DX 11 ?

Yes ahah, not false i remember they will insert dx11 after the release, with a patch. Maybe they will do same job with R2TW and increase graphic system (or gameplay ? multiplayers ?) with futur patchs / DLC ?

[Raimeken]

Bump mapping to increase the details on a battlefield floor that we probably aren't going to stare at for hours and hours anyway? Before Displacement mapping is done on the floor, they should replace sprites with tessellated models.

Of course all of that is a pipe dream. OP, what you don't understand is that even though they can have the option of including these things regardless of system resources, do you think they should spend the money and time to do it when it takes a GTX Titan to run this on Ultra? The important thing about TW graphics should be unit detail, sprites, and object detail. The fancy stuff that DX11 offers really isn't optimal for RTS usage.

[Stoferr]

Bump mapping to increase the details on a battlefield floor that we probably aren't going to stare at for hours and hours anyway? Before Displacement mapping is done on the floor, they should replace sprites with tessellated models.

Of course all of that is a pipe dream. OP, what you don't understand is that even though they can have the option of including these things regardless of system resources, do you think they should spend the money and time to do it when it takes a GTX Titan to run this on Ultra? The important thing about TW graphics should be unit detail, sprites, and object detail. The fancy stuff that DX11 offers really isn't optimal for RTS usage.

Its not like bump maps are that difficult to make, in fact Photoshop Can generate them quite fast and easily. Now implementing the code for such maps might be a bit more time consuming, but jeez, they made a whole new graphics engine for this game, bump maps would only be a fracture of the work. But else I agree with you, they should first focus on tesselating the units, that would be so awesome!

[Jedi]

Remember how Shogun 2 was released with no DX 11 ?

This is funny and once again blows the person who foolishly said it was Pre-Alpha and his arguement out of the water.If you take a look on Youtube you can watch the Pre-Alpha Shogun II video and see features that were not even present on release! Infact some things looked better in the alpha.

The truth is that since CA did that terrible gloss removal and screwed up the color's and graphics is stands that as of now 2013 the Shogun 2 alpha video looks BETTER than the game is in its current version.Just ask Mr BoBo about his beloved and butchered Onna Bushi textures and faces.I shed a tear everytime i look at the Gloss threads on TWC.


So how do u argue against that?

[Totalheadache]

good thread op but i have asked this question a few times and i dont think we'll get an answer. would be nice though...

oh and i think i can partly answer one bit of the op, CA arent as is stands working with nvidia. (correct me if am wrong). they have been working with amd so that might perhaps explain some of the recent tech we saw in shogun2.

(and i think part of the reason for the disasterous launch).

[SpecialPH]

good thread op but i have asked this question a few times and i dont think we'll get an answer. would be nice though...

oh and i think i can partly answer one bit of the op, CA arent as is stands working with nvidia. (correct me if am wrong). they have been working with amd so that might perhaps explain some of the recent tech we saw in shogun2.

(and i think part of the reason for the disasterous launch).

Doesn't Shogun II have "AMD - Gaming Evolved" splash screen at the start ...

People keep complaining about AMD GPUs for Shogun 2, but I ran it with my 7770 on Ultra/1080p (except max AA/AF) without any issue ...

[Totalheadache]

Doesn't Shogun II have "AMD - Gaming Evolved" splash screen at the start ...

People keep complaining about AMD GPUs for Shogun 2, but I ran it with my 7770 on Ultra/1080p (except max AA/AF) without any issue ...

yes that's what i was saying. if you notice the op linked something from nvidia, i was assuming that warscape isnt going to be able to use nvidia techniques unless CA/SEGA pay nvidia.

if u check medwardkingdoms that has an nvidia logo...

p.s game runs ok on both. but perf as it stands if faster on nvidia, that doesnt mean as you quite rightly noticed u cant have fun on an amd card.

been a long flame war amd v nvidia drivers. i know which i prefer but neither "suck".

[XxAndrewxX2525]

Doesn't Shogun II have "AMD - Gaming Evolved" splash screen at the start ...

People keep complaining about AMD GPUs for Shogun 2, but I ran it with my 7770 on Ultra/1080p (except max AA/AF) without any issue ...

Except for the horrible frames you would get if you had a decent sized battle.

[SpecialPH]

Except for the horrible frames you would get if you had a decent sized battle.

Played with two full armies (with reinforcements coming in) and still didn't experience even a slightest hang or frame drop ...

[Jedi]

Also Tip of the day:

If Rome II lands with DX 11.1 as default working i would make a backup on steam after patch 1 incase something like the gloss debacle ever happens again.I only wish i had Barbarians 30GB backup of Shogun 2 before the gloss patch and FOTS.I have a Blu-Ray burner and a 50GB disc just for Rome II.

[super_newbie_pro]

Ati/AMD cards support Displacement mapping :
http://www.ati.com/developer/gdc/GDC...entMapping.pdf
http://www.ati.com/developer/gdc/Tat...INAL_Print.pdf
http://www.ati.com/developer/techrep...ping(GI04).pdf

But... If we know that on pictures from the Pre-alpha, the Displacement Mapping is not here, and if we dont know if CA will implant him in final version for ground / soil / rocks (maybe Will, craig could reply about that ?), do you know if in Shogun 2, displacement mapping is ok for ground ? i have not the game, i dont know.

In other games :

As you can see in the picture, Civilization V uses a variety of heights for the various terrain that is in the game, including mountains and hills. The way that the Civ V developers likely did this was to make the terrain they wished, flattened it and saved it as a texture, and then used a displacement map to get the terrain features back. Since a displacement map actually alters the vertex locations, the height of the terrain will be accurate, as opposed to if they had used normal mapping.
Displacement maps operate by using greyscale pixels on an image, each pixel representing how much the actual onscreen pixel will be displaced. The fact that the displacement comes from something as simple as a 2D image means that it is not difficult to create lots of hilly terrain. This is a crucial thing for games, as most games would be quite boring if the landscapes were entirely flat. While displacement maps can be used for other things, terrain is one of the best ways to use it.

Look too http://youtu.be/ONm2iX5TscE

And a very good exemple of what can do the displacement mapping in game on the CryEngine3 Tech Trailer at 1:08 ==> http://youtu.be/JWvgETOo5ek?t=1m8s

[DeadlyPhoenix]

Or maybe these screenshots are just taken, you know, on low settings? Because, maybe, they've put up battles with giant numbers of units for the show's sake? Like those 'biggest screenshot ever' and all that jazz?

Maybe.

Maybe not.

Can't truly know until you've seen the game at actual maximum settings - which is also the reason it's quite pointless to continue another one of these endless 'no you' 'no, you!' kind of debates where the whole discussion can be boiled down into
'amd is better than nvidia because I can play without laggs - followed by: lies, nvidia is best because I can play without laggs'.

Which doesn't take away that the game will/would look awesome using tessellation and what not else, but why just assuming it doesn't, nor it will? Because yerr good ol' TWCfellowers got this awesome argument, gotta complain before the game is out because, y'know, they will change it when I ask them to?

I don't think Shogun 2 looks half that bad on ultra settings, so i'm quite put on ease that Rome II will be just as good, if not better considering it's the same engine and requirements - actually, I'd daresay that the max. requirements will be (slightly?) higher only you will now be able to run it smoother and nicer with lower-end pc's due to optimisation, so don't fret just yet.

[super_newbie_pro]

euh... You think CA will release screens of her futur HIT, in low settings to promote it ?

But maybe CA dont want include that in the game... Maybe its because he generates lag ? or maybe they think the most people do not play with such a close-up view and therefore the level of detail of the soil will be barely noticeable, do not need to implement this technology ?