Faction of Sparta

[Spajjder]

I read in an PC-gamer that spartan generals will not fight by horse but by foot, this as one of differences between cultures that they talked about in the beginning alot

[LaLaLand]

I love my foot-generals. Used to mod the Norwegian/Danish generals in SS to be foot 2 handed axemen and use them for crack assault infantry in sieges.


Sparta will most likely be my second play-through after I'm satisfied with my Roman campaign.

[AnthoniusII]

One -at least- correction:
Each Greek City State -in the clasic period- had a permanent profesional force to guard its domain untill the citizens (millitia actually) would gather and form the army.
That force was more or less 300 men. In the majority of city states the name of that unit was indded Logades.
In Theba though was known as Sacred Company (Ieros Lochos) and in Sparta was known as Ippeis (horsemen).
Ofcourse Ippeis in Spartan serve were not horsemen but the most highly trained hoplites.

[Durnaug]

One -at least- correction:
Each Greek City State -in the clasic period- had a permanent profesional force to guard its domain untill the citizens (millitia actually) would gather and form the army.
That force was more or less 300 men. In the majority of city states the name of that unit was indded Logades.
In Theba though was known as Sacred Company (Ieros Lochos) and in Sparta was known as Ippeis (horsemen).
Ofcourse Ippeis in Spartan serve were not horsemen but the most highly trained hoplites.

Every Spartan citizen is a "trained soldier" although that term doesn't begin to describe the insane, all encompassing militaristic upbringing they experience. The 300 you refer to are the best of the best, according to those who select them each year.

Ironically enough, as some witty poster pointed out a while back, by the game time frame there are only 300 Spartiates left ;-) However during the Classical Period there are 1000s of the blighters.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

You forgot The colonies of Sparta , what about the Taras City , what would field?

[Durnaug]

You forgot The colonies of Sparta , what about the Taras City , what would field?

True. Some Spartans continue to try and setup their own colonies away from the Greek mainland. One even tried to setup a new colony near Taras, I think. Another near Cyrene? But Sparta has long stopped creating traditional colonies like the one at Taras - Sparta had to use most of her citizens just to rule the massive helot population.

[Steel*Faith]

Wow, this is really amazing history I never learned about. A Spartan colony in Italy, and right in the Gulf of Tarentum! And people have the nerve to say Sparta has no relevance in this time period? The more I learn about Spartan and Roman history, the more I'm seeing interesting connections between the two. This completely changes my perspective of Sparta, because there's a definite possibility for Sparta to explore and colonize new areas in the mediterranean, if only they have the capability to do so - which we will have for game purposes.

I'm curious now if the territory of Taras, on the campaign map, will be inhabited by Greek settlers? If so this changes my strategic plan for my campaign, and I plan on taking this territory for Sparta asap, and then fortifying it so Rome will not take it for themselves- as they did real history. This would give Sparta a nice point of trade and naval travel between Greece and Italy, and give them strategic position to control the Gulf of Tarentum, and then Sicily, and blockade Macedon from having naval access in this part of the ocean. Also, you could launch a landing force in northern Macedonian lands, while the main Spartan army marches up from the south - effectively pincering in Macedon and other Greek Cities.

[neoptolemos]

Thera (modern day Santorini ) was also a Spartan colony. Both of them however wouldn't be any different than any other Doric colony.

[RexImperator]

By the Game Time frame Taras is under Roman control or on the verge of being under Roman control They were known for their decadent lifestyle and often called in mercenary generals to fight wars for them. Though Sparta did send a few generals to help them out Tarentum was quite independent of Sparta by this point in time.

[perifanosEllinas]

One -at least- correction: Each Greek City State -in the clasic period- had a permanent profesional force to guard its domain untill the citizens (millitia actually) would gather and form the army. That force was more or less 300 men. In the majority of city states the name of that unit was indded Logades. In Theba though was known as Sacred Company (Ieros Lochos) and in Sparta was known as Ippeis (horsemen). Ofcourse Ippeis in Spartan serve were not horsemen but the most highly trained hoplites.

No,that is not true.Permanent Professional guarding forces require permanent salaries and most of the city-states couldn't afford such luxuries.There were small garrisons however that were formed by amateur young men of the city who currently served the city's military.It is known that most of the city-states had an obligation for military service for the young men at about age 18 that lasted for a year and during that year they were sent to man the garrisons. The wealthiest/biggest city-states chose yearly the 300 best athletes of the city to form the logades unit that was usualy used as the royal guard.Those 300 were not a professional war unit,they did not train daily in war tactics and physical condition,but they were common citizens who were usually the first to be called to arms in an emergency until the rest of the army gathered. The Theban Sacred Band unit was a professional war unit however,because Thebes could afford that at the time.The Spartan logades were also called Ippes in Sparta,true.

That would be a good idea I think, and I feel like if a Spartan Empire existed, they would need to expand their agoge to key locations across their territory to be successful; but I have a feeling CA will keep Spartan troops trained only in Sparta, like in the first Rome. That way Spartans will always be fewer in number and highly elite; which also creates some serious difficulty to the campaign for Sparta. Auxiliary troops will be recruited in the regions they're native to, and Helots will be recruited from all regions they own since they're so widespread and massed. I'm sorry to hear that mate, there's a lot of negative and senseless people on this forum, and the majority of them hate Greeks for some reason. I wouldn't pay them much attention, especially if they're cowards enough to not even directly respond to your ideas in the actual thread. Sparta just keeps getting better with more I see and hear from CA. I don't like Cavalry generals, and I always wanted an elite bodyguard of infantry with my General, so that's really great to hear! A General willing to get into the thick of the battle on foot, speaks highly of the size of his cojones!

Actually,we have a sign of what Sparta would do in the case of a Spartan empire,as we have the Spartan hegemony after the Peloponnesian war.The Spartans didn't let anyone get near to Sparta so that their secret ways would not be exposed.They were as secretive and mysterious as they always had been after the reforms of Lycourgos.They treated everyone as inferior dogs and their previous allies turned against them.In the end a huge anti-Spartan alliance of city-states from central Greece and Peloponnese was formed with Thebes leading.Famous battles followed like the battle of Nemea river or the battle at Leuctra.So that shows us that the Spartans would never reveal their training system to others no matter what.For the game I think the same thing should happen to keep the campaign a serious challenge.If I'm able to recruit 5 full stacks of 40 elite Spartan phalanxes I'll be overpowered as hell and the challenge will be lost actually. Indeed my friend.I have seen a lot of hate against the Greek factions and I honestly don't know where that comes from. I also hate mounted generals.I'm a traditional guy who admires the Spartan way of war.

You forgot The colonies of Sparta , what about the Taras City , what would field?

The game is expected to begin around 270-264 BC,right? The Lakedaemonian colonies in Taras took place in the late 8th century BC.Far away from our period.Taras was conquered by Rome in 270 BC and turned into a Roman province.It had no relations at the time with Sparta,except a few times that the Spartans hired Tarantine cavalry,which was light missile cavalry.We also see in the previews that Taras belongs already to Rome so no Tarantine standard units should be present in the Spartan army in the game.Only the Tarantine cavalry as mercenaries maybe.

True. Some Spartans continue to try and setup their own colonies away from the Greek mainland. One even tried to setup a new colony near Taras, I think. Another near Cyrene? But Sparta has long stopped creating traditional colonies like the one at Taras - Sparta had to use most of her citizens just to rule the massive helot population.

The colonies of Sparta were created long before the game period and mainly my Perioikoi and generally Lakedaemonians.The Spartans themselves were forbidden by law to live outside of Sparta,unless being punished by exile,marching to war outside of Sparta or leading mercenary Lakedaemonian forces hired away from Sparta.

Nobody knows Xanthippus of Sparta?

He was the Spartan who reformed the Carthaginian army into the army that crushed the Romans under Hannibal's lead.He was responsible for the successful Carthaginian resistance against the Romans for 14 years in the first Carthaginian war (264 BC - 241 BC).In 256 BC the Carthaginians suffered a crushing naval defeat at Eknomos and the Romans invaded Africa itself.So the Carthaginians were desperate for help.They sent recruiters to Greece to hire mercenaries.One of them came back with a strong force of Greek mercenaries.One of those Greeks was Xanthippos,a Spartan Ypomeionas and leader of the force.When he arrived in Carthage he was surprised by the highly outdated Carthaginian tactics and openly accused the Carthaginian commanders for their wrong tactics.They were mad at him and sent him though a trial in the military court.But the reasoning and opinions he used highly convinced the judges and lords of Carthage.Those were the council of 100,who admired his military knowledge that match that placed him high general of the whole Carthaginian army.In the winter of 256/5 BC he reformed the Carthaginian army to the Greek standards and created a Carthaginian phalanx and cavalry of high level of organization,discipline and fighting skill.He even tought the Carthaginians how to correctly use the elephants on the battlefield despite that the Lakedaemonians never used elephants themselves.Xanthippos was experienced with elephants at war because he was in Sparta in 272 BC when Pyrros assaulted the city with elephants.He was a professional mercenary and it is believed that he had participated also in Hellenistic armies of the East that used elephants.Xanthippos showed great tactic skills when he led a Carthaginian army in crushing the Romans in the battle of Tynitos in 255 BC.But after a series of impressive successes the Carthaginian commanders grew jealous of him and hated him.His life was in dander due to conspiracy theories reaching his ears and he finally abandoned Carthage.In 245 BC he was hired by Ptolemaios III of Egypt and placed commander of an Egyptian province's army.The legacy of his reforms in the Carthaginian army proved great.Amilkas Varkas followed faithfully everything that Xanthippos had tought the Carthaginians and he passed all that knowledge to his son.His son was called Hannibal and is considered one of the greatest commanders in history.He is the one who brought the Romans one step before total destruction 39 years later,following faithfully everything that Xanthippos had tought the Carthaginians.He even used the same tactic that the Athenians used in Marathon,but he disguised it by slightly changing it so that the Romans wouldn't realise it before it's too late.

Hypothetical question here. If Sparta manages to forge an Empire, how do you think their Agoge system would operate to accommodate the greater need for man power and more Spartiates? Would they still train and recruit only in Sparta, or do you think they would expand to other key location in their Empire and train more of their core troops in other places? Also, would they only keep Spartan citizens trained in the agoge, or do you think they might recruit from non-spartans or maybe even other Greeks?

I already expressed my opinion earlier on that.They should be able to recruit local troops from regions they conquer,like Athenian hoplites from Athens for example,but the agoge system should be unique to them I think.

I read in an PC-gamer that spartan generals will not fight by horse but by foot, this as one of differences between cultures that they talked about in the beginning alot

Not only the Spartans disliked the cavalry units,but they also considered them beneath them and unworthy.They actually punished those who failed in the agoge tests by putting them in the Lakedaemonian cavalry unit and that was considered a great humiliation in Sparta.

[Steel*Faith]

Not only the Spartans disliked the cavalry units,but they also considered them beneath them and unworthy.They actually punished those who failed in the agoge tests by putting them in the Lakedaemonian cavalry unit and that was considered a great humiliation in Sparta.

That's awesome I love Sparta!

Actually,we have a sign of what Sparta would do in the case of a Spartan empire,as we have the Spartan hegemony after the Peloponnesian war.The Spartans didn't let anyone get near to Sparta so that their secret ways would not be exposed.They were as secretive and mysterious as they always had been after the reforms of Lycourgos.They treated everyone as inferior dogs and their previous allies turned against them.In the end a huge anti-Spartan alliance of city-states from central Greece and Peloponnese was formed with Thebes leading.Famous battles followed like the battle of Nemea river or the battle at Leuctra.So that shows us that the Spartans would never reveal their training system to others no matter what.

Very important information here. So in that case, I really hope Ca keeps the Agoge strictly in Sparta itself. This will make core Spartan units very few and elite compared to other armies, and you will really need to take care not to loose them in battle. This should make playing sparta very fun and a unique experience compared to even other Greeks or Hellenistic nations.

[Heinz Guderian]

This is an amazing thread perifanosE. I thought i had read alot about the Spartans, but some of the info you give in this thread has really impressed me brother. This was written in May, and since then some more information has come out, are there any other things you can now comment on/update?

[perifanosEllinas]

This is an amazing thread perifanosE. I thought i had read alot about the Spartans, but some of the info you give in this thread has really impressed me brother. This was written in May, and since then some more information has come out, are there any other things you can now comment on/update?

Thanks a lot mate

Yes,I could update the thread with new units and some corrections of the old,as I already had worked on that update,but the thread was buried way back in page 94 I think.No people showed further interest and that's basically why I didn't update it.But if there is request for it,I might update it soon.

[Heinz Guderian]

Thanks a lot mate

Yes,I could update the thread with new units and some corrections of the old,as I already had worked on that update,but the thread was buried way back in page 94 I think.No people showed further interest and that's basically why I didn't update it.But if there is request for it,I might update it soon.

that would be excellent sir. i will subscribe to this thread, if you update later, and if you remember, i would really like it if you posted on my wall to let me know. keep up the great work brother!

[Acroneos]

How do you do my Sparta-loving friends? What is the reason you like Sparta and you will, like me, start your first R2 campaign as them?

For me, it is the sheer coolness of them. Also, because of the mothering corinthian helmet. Also, I very like greek culture. I took me long to decide between Macedon, Sparta and Athens whom to play first as. But then I remembered how I played my first campaign in RTW as greek city states. Also, I am a fan of 300 movie.

[PSYCHO V]

I could come up with some 'colourful' historically based names for units .. but I'd just be howled down by the fanboys and revisionist historians... and banned.

[blackheartz]

I could come up with some 'colourful' historically based names for units .. but I'd just be howled down by the fanboys and revisionist historians... and banned.

No no, do not waste your time with this. Focus on your "JUDEA IS NOT IN THE GAME, bla bla bla, SO UNHISTORIC AND GAME RUINING, bla bla!!!" campaign.

[neoptolemos]

I am not particularly a fan of Spartans but I do admit their military reputation makes this faction appealing. It is also a great chance to see how Sparta will perform as an empire building state. Even restoring their former status could be a moderate ambitious campaign. I will consider playing with them rather late though because they will be a hard game.

[ptoss1]

I will play as Sparta simply because 300 made me read about them.
However they are still the greatest band of homosexuals to ever walk the Earth.

[Oplitis]

I will play as Sparta simply because 300 made me read about them.
However they are still the greatest band of homosexuals to ever walk the Earth.

Totally wrong about the homosexuality. It was forbiden for them to have any sexual relasionship except with their wives whom they saw only a few days ber month.

It seems that everyone was confusing one Athenian tradition about the "Erastes" and the "Eromenos" (tradition that was hideous and despised to many Athenians even) being part of the traditions of all other Greeks.