Faction of Sparta

[perifanosEllinas]

I think that historical games can be an interesting educational tool.

Yes,certainly!And they often make people more interested in history actually.

You mean that the battle of Thermophylae is real but the movie 299+Leonidas turned it into something that... well... I can't find good words to describe it. Especially on how they described the Persians too.
Also, OP, I am pretty sure I have seen this kind of thread before! I think it was called the units of Sparta or something like that.
EDIT2: OP, wtf man? You already posted in that thread? Why start another with the same subject?!
EDIT: Here is the link to it:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?600366-Spartan-Units

Some people thought that the lists deserved more attention and suggested the creation of new threads dedicated to them,so here they are.

And by the way,they were right.Many more people have seen them now.

That's the sort of detail that impresses, e.g. where to position in the "inferiors" in the Spartan regiments. I do understand the gaming rationale of creating separate regiments for "inferiors" and Spartiates but why not have slightly weakened Spartiate units (in terms of stats) that represent the dilution? This provides a plausible reason for having lots of Spartiate regiments. Then, after a series of reforms, they become stronger units because of the increasing number of Spartiates.

In terms of reforms, I love the idea of 2 stages. Firstly, at the game start time around 270bc (264bc?) the agoge is still in use but fading out and the primary goal of the Spartan player should be to reinvigorate this system, i.e. by opening up full Spartan citizenship to the inferiors, and some helots/periokoi. However this would NOT be the full-on Kleomenian hellenistic reform, i.e. the whole idea with this first stage is to preserve the classical system and field a full Spartiate hoplite army in the classical style.

The second reform stage would be the Kleomenian reforms in which the equipment and training is upgraded to reflect the hellenistic style, i.e. macedonian-type phalanxes. However, if the player is a stubborn old Spartan and has saved the agoge system (i.e. has reached the goals for the first reform) he/she can refuse the second stage and suffer its consequent constraints of no pikemen etc...

However, if the player fails to preserve the classical agoge system (as happens historically) then the player is forced to eventually implement the Kleomenian reforms which are more hellenistic than classical, although the agoge is resurrected at least in name.

It would have been great if you had the option to do reforms or return to traditionalistic military organization.
I mean choose the Agoge-More Elite Spartan units -bonuses to public order -decreased income but lower upkeep costs-less non Spartan units available
Choose the reforms-Spartan army more hellenistic-fewer Elite units-More non-Spartan units-
Just a quick example

Nice ideas guys.But I think that the reforms should add phalangites without the hoplites dissapearing completely.In reality,Kleomenis created two seperate elite Spartan phalanxes.The one was formed of 4.000 men armed traditionally as Spartan hoplites and the other one was formed by 2.000 men armed as heavy phalangites.Of course he also kept the independent Perioikoi and Helots phalaxes that were used before.So I think that the reforms should not be a choice of hoplites versus phalangites but an addition to the older roster of phalangites and the other few units that I include in the list.

By the way,keep an eye in both threads.Updates are coming...

[TsarGrey]

By the way,keep an eye in both threads.Updates are coming...

You don't have third for Epirus?

[perifanosEllinas]

You don't have third for Epirus?

Epirus huh?mmm...Would you be disappointed by any other faction? I had a different faction in mind...

After revising the lists however,I saw that I forgot some important units.So I will give some care to those two lists first to bring them as close to perfection as possible and then we'll see if a third list comes up.It'll depend on the interest that people will show to those two threads I guess.Searching,organizing the texts,creating the list,typing it and posting it takes a hell of a lot of time and effort so we'll see...

I like the idea of a third one though...

[TsarGrey]

Epirus huh?mmm...Would you be disappointed by any other faction? I had a different faction in mind...

I wouldn't, just threw it since you did seem to favor greeks. But, you actually do consider third?

[Durnaug]

It would have been great if you had the option to do reforms or return to traditionalistic military organization.
I mean choose the Agoge-More Elite Spartan units -bonuses to public order -decreased income but lower upkeep costs-less non Spartan units available
Choose the reforms-Spartan army more hellenistic-fewer Elite units-More non-Spartan units-
Just a quick example

Saving the agoge along classical lines could mean implementing some of the Agis/Cleomenian land reforms in order to create new Spartiates that can afford continued membership of the class. You could also throw in a goal to reconquer Messene to consolidate the return to the "old ways", nasty as it sounds but probably too detailed for RTW scale.

Perhaps it is better to leave the composition of the army in the hands of the player. For example, you can meet the requirements of the more hellenistic aspects of the Kleomenian reforms but simply choose not to build the now accessible units/constructions.

I think the bonuses and penalities you suggest for either the Classical or Hellenistic paths a player might take are great.

[neoptolemos]

Saving the agoge along classical lines could mean implementing some of the Agis/Cleomenian land reforms in order to create new Spartiates that can afford continued membership of the class. You could also throw in a goal to reconquer Messene to consolidate the return to the "old ways", nasty as it sounds but probably too detailed for RTW scale.

Perhaps it is better to leave the composition of the army in the hands of the player. For example, you can meet the requirements of the more hellenistic aspects of the Kleomenian reforms but simply choose not to build the now accessible units/constructions.

I think the bonuses and penalities you suggest for either the Classical or Hellenistic paths a player might take are great.

See the historical background of Sparta enable you to make a set of realistically looking scenarios.Good knowledge of the history and good brainstorming and there you have a multiple of interesting campaigns making Spartans a jewel for the game.
If not the game maybe the mods.....

[beos777]

hello proud Greek. You have done an incredible work. I would like also to see some rosters for the other hellenistic/hellenic factions, which we already know that they are in the game. For example, Pontus,Ptolemies,Macedon and of course Epirus. If you have the stomach to do it i would love to see it.

[neoptolemos]

He will have his devoted fans in these forums

[perifanosEllinas]

hello proud Greek. You have done an incredible work. I would like also to see some rosters for the other hellenistic/hellenic factions, which we already know that they are in the game. For example, Pontus,Ptolemies,Macedon and of course Epirus. If you have the stomach to do it i would love to see it.

Hello to you too.Thank you!!!

You openly challenge a Greek? You have balls.

Just kidding of course I'm interested in some other factions too,so I might do some more.As long as you keep showing interest guys,there is always the chance of a new roster.After I update the current two though,which will not take long.Keep an eye my friend.

He will have his devoted fans in these forums

Oh,come on...It sounds almost too good to be true.You really believe that?

I wouldn't, just threw it since you did seem to favor greeks. But, you actually do consider third?

I am Greek myself so I am more familiar with those rosters and the terms like original unit names,equipment names etc.If I decide to do a non-Greek one I will certainly have problems with the original terms and it'll take notably more searching,effort and time to complete.But if a faction is really worth it then there is the chance that I will try.

I indeed consider a third one.There are four candidates.I won't say which.I'm still thinking which one of them it'll be.

Oh,by the way,I also don't guarantee that it'll be a playable faction...

[Stath's]

Oh,by the way,I also don't guarantee that it'll be a playable faction...

Smells Seleukides in the air..

[beos777]

I admire you man. Keep it up!!!

[scivian]

Thanks for sharing this. Can you add some sources?

[Destraex]

When does RTW2 time period start?

[ptoss1]

Nobody knows Xanthippus of Sparta?

[Steel*Faith]

Hypothetical question here. If Sparta manages to forge an Empire, how do you think their Agoge system would operate to accommodate the greater need for man power and more Spartiates? Would they still train and recruit only in Sparta, or do you think they would expand to other key location in their Empire and train more of their core troops in other places? Also, would they only keep Spartan citizens trained in the agoge, or do you think they might recruit from non-spartans or maybe even other Greeks?

[ptoss1]

Hypothetical question here. If Sparta manages to forge an Empire, how do you think their Agoge system would operate to accommodate the greater need for man power and more Spartiates? Would they still train and recruit only in Sparta, or do you think they would expand to other key location in their Empire and train more of their core troops in other places? Also, would they only keep Spartan citizens trained in the agoge, or do you think they might recruit from non-spartans or maybe even other Greeks?

Do what the Mongols did.
Force their enemies to run in front of them with tied hands to act as meat fodder.

[perifanosEllinas]

After checking some threads I have seen a lot of hate for those lists.Let me make something clear guys.I'm not trying to achieve anything here or prove that I'm someone expert in history.I'm definitely not.The moment you think that you know everything is the moment that you prove how ignorant you are.That's my opinion.

These threads started accidentally really.I just responded to a post of steel*faith in another thread with my suggestion of a Spartan roster and people liked it and suggested me to do Athens next.I did it and then people suggested to put the 2 lists in separate threads so more people can notice them and I did.That's it basically.Nothing more,nothing less.I don't try to force my opinion to others,I don't try to show to CA how to do their jobs and I certainly don't try to present myself as a history expert.

I don't need to prove anything to anyone.I am who I am and very proud of myself.

If you think about it I actually provide a lot of sources in the Athenian list for free and people still hate on it.If you don't like the list you are free to say your opinion.I'm not some kind of dictator.But say it here to me.Not to other random threads.That's like accusing someone who's not present to defend himself.It's an unmanly behaviour.

All that hate makes me reconsider the creation of a 3rd roster.After all that hard work (especially for Athens) and people keep attacking my threads.

Even if you think that those rosters are way too detailed,have too many units or that they're ridiculous as some say there are still people interested in them and actually some mod teams can use them for free to create more complicated rosters.They are just suggestions.Get over it.They're not history lessons.

[RexImperator]

Hypothetical question here. If Sparta manages to forge an Empire, how do you think their Agoge system would operate to accommodate the greater need for man power and more Spartiates? Would they still train and recruit only in Sparta, or do you think they would expand to other key location in their Empire and train more of their core troops in other places? Also, would they only keep Spartan citizens trained in the agoge, or do you think they might recruit from non-spartans or maybe even other Greeks?

Perhaps they could have some form of Agoge building (maybe called "Homoioi Colony" or something) which once built in a territory represents the Spartan state enfranchising conquered peoples or settling a group of Spartan soldiers in a new territory.

[Steel*Faith]

Perhaps they could have some form of Agoge building (maybe called "Homoioi Colony" or something) which once built in a territory represents the Spartan state enfranchising conquered peoples or settling a group of Spartan soldiers in a new territory.

That would be a good idea I think, and I feel like if a Spartan Empire existed, they would need to expand their agoge to key locations across their territory to be successful; but I have a feeling CA will keep Spartan troops trained only in Sparta, like in the first Rome. That way Spartans will always be fewer in number and highly elite; which also creates some serious difficulty to the campaign for Sparta. Auxiliary troops will be recruited in the regions they're native to, and Helots will be recruited from all regions they own since they're so widespread and massed.

After checking some threads I have seen a lot of hate for those lists.

I'm sorry to hear that mate, there's a lot of negative and senseless people on this forum, and the majority of them hate Greeks for some reason. I wouldn't pay them much attention, especially if they're cowards enough to not even directly respond to your ideas in the actual thread.

I read in an PC-gamer that spartan generals will not fight by horse but by foot, this as one of differences between cultures that they talked about in the beginning alot

Sparta just keeps getting better with more I see and hear from CA. I don't like Cavalry generals, and I always wanted an elite bodyguard of infantry with my General, so that's really great to hear! A General willing to get into the thick of the battle on foot, speaks highly of the size of his cojones!

[Durnaug]

Hypothetical question here. If Sparta manages to forge an Empire, how do you think their Agoge system would operate to accommodate the greater need for man power and more Spartiates? Would they still train and recruit only in Sparta, or do you think they would expand to other key location in their Empire and train more of their core troops in other places? Also, would they only keep Spartan citizens trained in the agoge, or do you think they might recruit from non-spartans or maybe even other Greeks?

It's a great question and I cannot give an adequate answer, having deleted several earlier attempts. I can only think of some possible historical constraints that might add plausibility to the idea of a Spartan Empire that still uses the Agoge...

1. Apparently the agoge is a militaristic response to the huge messenian population that the Spartans conquer (I think there are also religious/spiritual connotations to the agoge but I never researched these). It helps produce full-time citizen soldiers who are subject to the contradictory laws of Sparta. However, Sparta is constantly running out of Spartiates and if the agoge is to be maintained, Spartiate numbers must be frequently replenished.

So maybe there is your first constraint, the frequency of Spartiates created by the Agoge will always be low and slow. However it might receive a huge influx of helots/inferiors/periokoi every generation or so to represent the WISE PLAYER always re-introducing something like the reforms of Agis/Kleomenes. It is a what-if game so we are able to play with hindsight

2. Would the Agoge stay in Sparta? I'll say a massively tentative yes. This does not preclude the player from recruiting all the usual hellenistic units from around the Med, but the Agoge stays in Sparta. It is a response to the unique Messenian situation and keeps the city of Sparta as an important and unique location - the player cannot afford to lose it!

If I want to grasp at historical straws then you could cite the example of the Battle of the Fetters against Tegea. Spartans marched to war against the City of Tegea on her northern borders, hoping to conquer her, enslave the inhabitants and parcel up the land just like they had recently done to the Messenians. The over-confident Spartans brought shackles and measuring rods (to measure out the land) with them and the victorious Tegeans used these same shackles on their defeated owners.

My point is that the Spartans failed at exporting the Messenian model to her neighbours. Although she eventually beat the Tegeans in battle, she used that victory and others to diplomatically create a league of cities that followed Sparta. Spartans do not get enough credit for their propaganda and diplomatic skills - you have to wonder about Spartan education because she produced her fair share of skilled diplomats (e.g. Antalclidas).

So in game terms, the Spartans might have a diplomatic mechanism that allows her to use the formidable reputation of her Spartiates (remember the propaganda and the Spartan mirage!) to force other states to see her as hegemon. Sometimes the Spartans don't even have to fight.

As an aside, you have to remember that most Spartiates are in a sense "Aristocratic Officers" - some are lazy and thick (usually the cruel ones), some are lazy and smart and the best are energetic and clever (paraphrasing Rommel's taxonomy, I think). But they are NOT mere worker bees buzzing around Sparta (like all metaphors, that one breaks down quite quickly). I think Lysander (smart and active) chastizes a particularly cruel and thick-headed fellow Spartan for not knowing "how to rule free men".

3. On the other hand, and to completely contradict point 2 , we might say a MASSIVE YES to the Agoge being exported to every conquered region. Why not let the player create Citizens, Periokoi and Helots in every single region she conquers? You can add time constraints, the inevitability of helot revolts, the slow production of Spartiates, the increasing number of inferiors who cannot afford to stay in the "communal messes" etc... It seems feasible from this point of view but presumably the act of attempting to export the helot and agoge model abroad carries huges risks for the player.

In terms of plausiblity, historically the Spartans are always setting up Periokoi colonies around the edges of laconia and the helots are not fixed in status either. They are sometimes promoted or even kicked out to give the Spartans peace and form their own colonies. My point is that these communities are not only fluid but socially engineered somewhat by the Spartans. So why not go ahead and export the whole Agoge citizenship model with all its craziness