Syntagma Discussion...

[Tom Paine]

how often do you see modders who have become civitates post in the symposium. And those that do post there are almost certianly already active in the cc anyways.

How much do you think your proposal would change that? This way we encourage thme to post in the Symposium then the rest of CC, rather than to just forget it as something they get no priviledges in.

[Kscott]

How much do you think your proposal would change that? This way we encourage thme to post in the Symposium then the rest of CC, rather than to just forget it as something they get no priviledges in.

Becuase now the people have a reason to post in the other sections. Viable rewards.

[Muizer]

Site elders are some of the most active contributors to TWC .

The rank shows they were active contributors at some time in the past, distant or recent. If some of them still are that has little to do with their honorary ranks.

and I think we should have a palce on the CdeC. Otherwise 5 Senatorii for example could run to be on the council then not get voted in

I'd say the recent elections have shown we really do not need to be afraid of this happening.

The situation that must be avoided at all cost is that voters, for lack of active candidates in the elders category have to turn to the (semi) retired. I strongly disapprove of this where it concerns offices with a pivotal role inplotting the future course of TWC. There is a simple way for "elders" to remain in the running or return in the ring: to be as active as all the others are expected to be.

[imb39]

The situation that must be avoided at all cost is that voters, for lack of active candidates in the elders category have to turn to the (semi) retired. I strongly disapprove of this where it concerns offices with a pivotal role inplotting the future course of TWC. There is a simple way for "elders" to remain in the running or return in the ring: to be as active as all the others are expected to be.

If there are insufficient 'Elders' then Staff can 'fill the gap.' If this proves to be an ongoing problem, then simply propose an ammendment to the CdeC rules.

[Tom Paine]

Kscott, why foster an artificial and currently nonexistant divide between CC and TW? What purpose or use does it serve?

[Kscott]

Kscott, why foster an artificial and currently nonexistant divide between CC and TW? What purpose or use does it serve?

both would have acces to the curia. Artifex simply their thing, Civitates the symposium. It would encourage people to try and make contributions to both communities as they will get rewarded for it. Its the same merit based system reasoning that the new patricians was constructed from.

[Tom Paine]

But the problem is that then they may restrict their efforts to one or the other in the hopes of getting noticed there. Not a good idea.

[Kscott]

But the problem is that then they may restrict their efforts to one or the other in the hopes of getting noticed there. Not a good idea.

I dont see how this is possible. If I did the normal cc stuff and became a civitate and wanted the rank of artifex as well I would start viable contributions to there as well. Do you really think this Civitate would completly forget of the cc then? On the contrary I think this serves to expand much more than restrict.

[Tom Paine]

It expands if we allow those who contribute to one access to the special area of the other, because at that point we are offering them special priviledges in that area and they are likely to at least look at those and probably take them up and diversify into the rest of the section.

[imb39]

I have edited the Syntagma in line with some of the edits suggested, namely:

• Replaced Civitate with Patrician in Legislation section, as noted by Perikles and Maron
• Rejigged Appendix A along Perikles's suggestion. not quite the same, though
• Removed the 'continued excellent posting' as this is an expectation rather than a requirement.

Other options have not been eliminated, however.

[Tom Paine]

If they don't post there its not a reward to get to post there.

[Kscott]

If they don't post there its not a reward to get to post there.

Sure it is. If I dont post in the TW much, having a reward to post in there will give me more incentive to make viable contributions.

[Sétanta]

Sure it is. If I dont post in the TW much, having a reward to post in there will give me more incentive to make viable contributions.

That is true, but at the cost of polarizing the sides is too much. That also means that the idea of allowing Civitates/Artifex to debate legislation in a sub-forum of the Symposium has to be re-done. Having three forums for that purpose is silly.

[Perikles]

Liking the new version...

But I echo Muizer's concerns about the 'Elders' thing, I just don't think there are enough that are active enough. Also if some Senatorii don't become patricians, we will have the silly situation of having non Patricians/people who can't post in the Curia able to run for the CDC...

I also thought I heard someone say that Tribounos were going to have to run for patricians, are we or aren't we? I don't mind either way really, but I'm jsut getting confused...
Or why don't we just say that Tribounos automatically beome patricians for the sake of less bureaucracy if not...

But overall I likey

[imb39]

Liking the new version...

But I echo Muizer's concerns about the 'Elders' thing, I just don't think there are enough that are active enough. Also if some Senatorii don't become patricians, we will have the silly situation of having non Patricians/people who can't post in the Curia able to run for the CDC...

As I said, there is a contingency in place. Staff will make up the numbers. If it is clear that this simply isn't working, then this can be changed. For me, this is relatively minor as

I also thought I heard someone say that Tribounos were going to have to run for patricians, are we or aren't we? I don't mind either way really, but I'm just getting confused...

All current Tribs will be simply promoted. In the future any Citizen that is promoted will be voted on in the fullness of time.

Or why don't we just say that Tribounos automatically become patricians for the sake of less bureaucracy if not...

We have, initially.

But overall I likey

We're getting there.

On a side note, folks, we'll take the ideas presented and see if things are changed finally, but don't expect any major changes. We are aiming to tweak this and then let the new Curia deal with it.

[Silver Guard]

I support JPs proposal, because it makes more sense then the Syntagma, but otherwise I'm happy with how it is at the moment. Well done Imb and Hex in general.

Being a staff member qualifies you to become patrician, yet to become a member of staff you must first be a patrician? Sorry but that makes no sense.

Only if you remove all other qualifications, put it this way:
Civitate > Patrician > Tribunous
Tribunous have already gone past the Patrician rank, so if they lose it they go back to Patrician. However, the Civitates can also becoem Patricians, meaning there is a growing pool of people to run for Tribunous. This is no problem, the Tribunous get as much competition either way, in the end we'll end up with new Tribs eventualy anyway, the system will heal itself in time

[Tom Paine]

So we apply current restrictions on entry to the Patricians class as restrictions on candidature for Tribounoi?

[King Henry V]

So we apply current restrictions on entry to the Patricians class as restrictions on candidature for Tribounoi?

Why not? Tribunoi have more power and responsabilty than patricians, is not logical that they should have at least equal restrictions?

[Perikles]

Why not? Tribunoi have more power and responsabilty than patricians, is not logical that they should have at least equal restrictions?

Moderating and joining the Curia don't needed the same charcter traits...

[Tom Paine]

Why not? Tribunoi have more power and responsabilty than patricians, is not logical that they should have at least equal restrictions?

I was just asking, that's all. And remember, the resrtictions on Patricians are changing; you are applying the old Patrician rules to the new Civitates/Artifex classes.

[imb39]

I have replaced the Syntagma and renamed the old one... erm, theOld Syntagma. We are, effectively, still working under the old Syntagma until the Patricians/Civitates have been formally sorted out. This gives everyone a chance to get used to the new one.

Discussion about the Syntagam can carry on but no legislation will be accepted until the reforms are complete. Two final alterations have been made:

i) Staff (Tribounos) are now part of the Site Elders and can be voted on to be in the CdeC. they also form a reserve should Patricians not wish to participate.
ii) We have formalised the issue of Citizens becoming Tribunous and the procedure for the CdeC election on Patrician status.

If someone can suggest better wording, not too hard, then please do so, but there will be no further changes until the Curia decides.

I wish to thank all those who took part in this process. It has been a thoroughly positive experience.

[Sétanta]

The wording is fine, in fact I find it easier to understand the more simpler version of the wording anyways (simpler does not mean not as good in this instance), not that I don't understand the other, more formal style, but the wording is better now than perhaps ever.

However, I believe that with regards to the Consilium de Civitate, now that Tribounos are included as site elders, that the Patricians should hold a majority of the seats on the council. By majority an 10-6 ratio would be fine. Doing this gives the patricians even more power on the council, something that I am under the impression as something that is wanted.

Otherwise, it is good enough. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, that sort of thing.

[imb39]

The wording is fine, in fact I find it easier to understand the more simpler version of the wording anyways (simpler does not mean not as good in this instance), not that I don't understand the other, more formal style, but the wording is better now than perhaps ever.

Thanks, again many people have worked on this over a significant period of time.

However, I believe that with regards to the Consilium de Civitate, now that Tribounos are included as site elders, that the Patricians should hold a majority of the seats on the council. By majority an 10-6 ratio would be fine. Doing this gives the patricians even more power on the council, something that I am under the impression as something that is wanted.

Otherwise, it is good enough. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, that sort of thing.

Yes, we do need to see it working.

Other than power being taken from Senatorii I do like it.

Well, muizer raised some valid concerns about choice but, Hex is determined that our job is purely advisory. This is a solution that keeps all sides happy. At the end of the day, it is still upto the Curia to elect their preferred candidates.

[Kscott]

Other than power being taken from Senatorii I do like it.

[Sétanta]

Other than power being taken from Senatorii I do like it.

Well, to be fair, serving in staff for a good long time is, IMO, pretty much going to guarantee ascension into the rank of Patrician, unless they already are a Patrician already. And if you are refering to the CdeC, a Senatorii could join either as a Patrician or as a Senatorii, unless that loophole is taken out.....


Other than those really minor things, you don't lose any power, seeing that a Senatorii is already an excellent member of the community.

[Sinuhet]

Ave imb39!
I am starting to bother you with this maybe, but my third post on the same thing in this thread:

Member Ranks and Rights
Members are divided into the following classes, with a member of any class also being a member of all preceding classes.

Peregrinus
Any member of TWC has the right to ask questions and suggest changes in the Suggestus forum.

Citizen
There are two ranks of Citizen, one is elevated for their contributions to the Total War Community (Artifex), the other is elevated for their contribution to the Common Community (Civitate). Both ranks grant access to the Symposium and the [insert name of new forum dedicated for advanced discussion of Total War.]

Patrician
Patricians are people who have proved they are good posters (as conferred by the rank of Civitate or Artifex), are interested in TWC and have made a good contribution to it, and who therefore deserve the right to have some say in the running of TWC.
Patricianship is awarded for contribution to TWC (Appendix A). None of these contributions provide automatic Patricianship however, but they do allow you to be nominated. In addition to those contributions the member must have at least one month’s experience as a Civitate and have no active warnings at the time of the election. Patricians are expected to contribute to the developing the site. Involvement in the Curia is part of that.
Patricians have the same rights as Citizens but are the only members who can vote on legislation and post in the Curia and Curia Vote forums.
All Patricians can nominate Civitates in accordance with the Patronization Act. If a Civitates' nomination fails the Consilium de Civitate (CdeC) vote, the Patrician cannot patronise again for two months.
Patricians are nominated to the CdeC by a member of Senior Staff or a member of the CdeC (who cannot then vote on the nomination). There is no patronage link (as per Patrician/Civitate relationship). Patricians are voted into their rank by the CdC on a 75% vote. Appendix A indicates possible criterion for promotion from Civitates to Patrician. It is not exhaustive.
Either the CdeC or the Senior Staff can revoke a Patrician's status back to Civitate on a 75% majority vote.

Senatorii
Any Civitate who gains the rank of Magistrate will gain the rank of Senatorii. They will retain it upon retirement if time served as moderator exceeds twelve weeks and upon unanimous agreement of the Triumvirate. The Senatorii rank confers no advantage, save status. The secondary rank – Civitate, Artifex or Patrician is the one that determines where the member has access or the legibility for elections, unless stated differently.

Opifex
To qualify as Opifex, the nominee must meet the following Criteria:
Served the Total War Center or Total War Community with exceptional input to any of the boards or mods in any capacity other than staff.
The nominee must be seconded by a member of the Consilium de Civitate before it can go to a vote. Vote shall be refused to any user who fails the criteria for citizenship with regard to warnings and post count.
Qualifying nominees shall be voted upon in the Curia for a period of one week, and a three-fourth majority will be sufficient to decorate a user as an Opifex. A user who passes the vote shall be awarded the rank of Opifex and Artifex (if the nominee was not one already). A nominee who fails to achieve a three-fourth majority is eligible to be nominated again after a three month period.

The secondary rank – Civitate, Artifex or Patrician is the one that determines where the member has access or the legibility for elections, unless stated differently.

Divus
To achieve apotheosis, the nominee must be seconded by 3 members of the Consilium de Civitates and meet the following criteria:
Served as a Triumvir and subsequently has been a Senatorii for at least three months.
Provided exceptional service to TWC in their capacity as staff.
After at least three days of discussion, qualifying nominees shall be voted upon in the Curia for a period of one week, and a three-fourth majority is sufficient to become 'Divus'. A nominee who fails is eligible to be nominated again after a three month period.

A Divus is considered automatically to be a Patrician and retains all privileges of that rank.

Curator
The Curator is responsible for the day to day running of the Curia. The Curator is drawn from the Senior Staff and is appointed by the Censor. The Curator may appoint a Pro-Curator to aid in this duty.

A "basic" member of a class is a member of that class but no higher classes; for instance, a Patrician would not be a "basic Civitates", but he would be a Civitates.

Please, remove the above red amrked inconsistencies from the new Syntagma. You have expalined me the your intention is Civitate = Artifex, only one is recrutied from CC and the other from TW Community, respectively. I amtalking you again that I belive you, but the written things in new Syntagma are saying something else. I see what I see, sorry, but this is our constitution. In its current wording I wolud not become Artifex, because he is not intended to be nominated for Patrician ..... The Consilium de Civitate can be as is, it is only name and from historical reasons it can be it further the same....

Sorry and bye, Sinuhet

[imb39]

Thanks again for the input. I'll implement those changes...

edit - done.