Where r the Achean league and Aetolian league??

[Lord Dakier]

I was just looking at the original RTW map - Greece has five regions - Sparta, Corinth, Athens, Thermon and Larissa. Apart from Epirus and Macedonia, of course. In comparison, Egypt has 3 regions, the whole Iberian peninsula has six, the whole of Britain has three, all of Gaul without Massilia has six... You get the hint?

Yet Macedonia steam roll in Vanilla till they're fighting Rome.

I like the idea of having them present, but it is already hard to add more depth to Greece. We have not touched the East at all really and that is where much of the money back then was.

[Evan MF]

Who says they won't be in game, they just won't be playable.

[RMSN NIKE]

Where r the Achean league and Aetolian league?? they fought with Rome and Sparta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achean_League

I just read this link and the Aetolian League link from within this page. They were not super powers by 270-265, the start of this game. As another poster posted, they might be a minor faction, which Achean League was a city state and their first expansion was 251. As for Aetolian, they did expand to Delphi in 290 and steadily grow after that, but they were still a minor faction. While by the start of the game, Athens, Sparta, and Macedon were super powers, and Epirus had already risen to super power statues, they were chosen as playable factions. The future, post-game start, super powers might be represented as what they were, city states, and not front page featured as playable faction.

Forgot to mention that the other two links to famous events in the "future" of the game start period, so that does not help.

[Jokern]

This might not be the best place to ask, but: what is the difference between a hoplite phalanx and a macedonian phalanx?

[Eofor]

This might not be the best place to ask, but: what is the difference between a hoplite phalanx and a macedonian phalanx?

A hoplite phalanx was comprised of heavy infantry whose primary purpose was to defeat the enemy in prolonged melee. A Macedonian phalanx was comprised of pikemen who were supposed to hold down the enemy until the cavalry could attack the flanks and rear.

[RMSN NIKE]

Macedonian carries a longer spear, I think called Sarrissa(?), 9ft I think, while the Hellenistic Hoplites carries a spear, 6ft(?) long. Formation style should be similar.

Behind by a minute, but the previous got the function of the formations, which only possible was because of the difference in the weapon length.

[torongill]

The Greek Hoplite phalanx was made of heavy spearmen, with big shields about 0.9-1m diameter and single-handed spears 2.4m long, the famed "doru" eight-footer. The length of the spears allowed the first three ranks of the formation(initially 8-deep, later 10-, 12-, 16- and even more) to attack the enemy.
This is more or less the stereotypical image of the hoplite phalanx.

The Macedonian phalanx had smaller shields(maybe around 0.6m diameter) and much longer pikes, from 5m to 6.5m long, held in two hands, the "sarissa" pike. The length of the pikes allowed the first five ranks to attack the enemy. The basic unit of the Macedonian phalanx was the syntagma of 256 men+supernumeraries, which in battle usually formed a 16x16 square.
This is how the Macedonian phalanx is usually imagined


As you can see, the Macedonian(later called also Hellenistic) phalanx had a range advantage and also a "firepower" advantage against the hoplite phalanx. The big difference between the two is that, at least initially, the Macedonian phalanx was a paid and trained professional force. The length of the sarissa requires more training and to be effectively used in formation the unit needs to train together.

What is interesting is that even though Philip II created the Macedonian phalanx and arguably his son Alexander the Great made it famous, neither of them used many phalangites. It was the successors of Alexander, the Diadochi, who began to employ massive formations of phalangites.

[Jokern]

Thanks guys, rep+ to all of you.

The macedonian seems to be the superior one, so hopefully will factions that heavily depend on the hoplite get a tech that enables the macedonian phalanx.

[Sharpe]

What is interesting is that even though Philip II created the Macedonian phalanx and arguably his son Alexander the Great made it famous, neither of them used many phalangites. It was the successors of Alexander, the Diadochi, who began to employ massive formations of phalangites.

That is interesting. What did Alexander and Phillip use as infantry as well as phalangites then?

[neoptolemos]

That is interesting. What did Alexander and Phillip use as infantry as well as phalangites then?

Heavy hoplites called hypaspistes, Agrianians, Peltasts

[Sharpe]

Heavy hoplites called hypaspistes, Agrianians, Peltasts

That makes sense. I thought the vast majority was Phalangites and the soldiers you mentioned were a distinct minority.

[torongill]

The pezhetairoi(Foot Companions) phalangites at Gaugamela were 9 000, in six taxeis of 1500 men each. Together with the hypaspists - 3 500, they were the center of the infantry line. the Agrianian javelins 1000 were posted before the cavalry on the right to defend against the chariots, as were 500 Thracian missile troops. The rest were hoplites, mercenary light spearmen and Thracian light infantry and maybe a thousand more missile troops, archers and slingers.

[LaLaLand]

Couple of sentences from wikipedia that I found interesting:

.. In 235 BC, Cleomenes III (r. 235–222 BC) ascended the throne of Sparta and began a program of reform aimed at restoring traditional Spartan discipline while weakening the influence of the ephors,

... Aratus, who had accompanied Aristomachos, advised him to retreat because even 20,000 Achaeans were no match for 5,000 Spartans...


... Taking advantage of the difficult terrain and the scattered cavalry, Cleomenes sent his Cretan and Tarentine soldiers against Lydiadas (Achaeans). They routed the cavalry, and Lydiadas was amongst the dead. The Spartans, encouraged by these events, charged against the main Achaean forces and defeated the entire army. The Achaeans were so outraged and demoralized by Aratus' failure to support Lydiadas that they made no further attacks in that year.


... With the ephors vanquished, Cleomenes initiated his reforms. First, he handed over his land to the state; he was soon followed by his stepfather and his friends, and then by the rest of the citizens. He divided up all of the Spartan land, awarding an equal lot to each citizen. He increased the citizen population by granting citizenship to some perioeci, who constituted the Spartan middle class, but did not at that time have Spartan citizenship. Expanding the citizen population meant that Cleomenes could build a larger army; he trained 4,000 hoplites and restored the old Spartan social and military discipline. He also strengthened his army by introducing the Macedonian sarissa (pike)

All this is after the start date. Seems to me that Sparta was on its way back to former glory under old school spartan warrior-king Cleomentes III, kicking some Achean ass along the way. Although they eventually lost they had an army 20 000 strong. This is a TW game and since its all about changing history no re-living it I find that Sparta at least is entirely justifiable. Athens perhaps not so much, but whatever.

Also Spartan pikemen OP.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Couple of sentences from wikipedia that I found interesting:

All this is after the start date. Seems to me that Sparta was on its way back to former glory under old school spartan warrior-king Cleomentes III, kicking some Achean ass along the way. Although they eventually lost they had an army 20 000 strong. This is a TW game and since its all about changing history no re-living it I find that Sparta at least is entirely justifiable. Athens perhaps not so much, but whatever.

Also Spartan pikemen OP.

*Shameless advertisement *

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...enistic-period

[AnthoniusII]

I suport the opening post's question...
Achean and Aetolian leaques should be fully playable factions instead of Athens and Sparta...
Athens was only a big city with NO army and navy at all!!
Sparta -after the huge earthquake that left the city with out teenagers-was a small town and nothing more.
Only the names reminded those two cities the glorius past of theirs....

[LaLaLand]

Sparta -after the huge earthquake that left the city with out teenagers-was a small town and nothing more.

A small town with 20 000 hoplites apparently. (Come on, jump on me and call me a ignorant spartan fanboy, please!)

[Admiral Piett]

If they go into this much detail in Greece with all of the dozens of different factions, think about the effort that would have to go into Persia, Anatolia, and Gaul...

Heck, the Samnites and some Celtic-Etruscans were still around at the start date. But it's doubtful we'll see much of them.

[Durnaug]

If they go into this much detail in Greece with all of the dozens of different factions, think about the effort that would have to go into Persia, Anatolia, and Gaul...

Heck, the Samnites and some Celtic-Etruscans were still around at the start date. But it's doubtful we'll see much of them.

It just feels right that Greece should have more "petty" regions than those you name, if only because of the historical resonance given the detailed histories that have survived.

[neoptolemos]

It just feels right that Greece should have more "petty" regions than those you name, if only because of the historical resonance given the detailed histories that have survived.

Yep I hold the same view.It is not the complex geopolitics of Greece that make it interesting to be presented in more detail (well not too much though) but the amount of sources we have for setting a background for the area.
I would like this to be the case for every region but I know it is impossible.

[LaLaLand]

They were in Rome 1 as Mercenaries iirc.