Why is the political situation in Greece historically inaccurate?

[RexImperator]

Would love to see Aetolia and Achea, by all means they should be included.

But, in 270 BC, which is the supposed start date, Athens and Sparta still have a last gasp against Macedon called the Chremoniadean War that has yet to happen. Also Sparta is arguably more powerful than the Achean League as the Acheans needed Macedonian help to put down Sparta in the Cleomenian War in the 220s BC.

Of the Three factions in the Greek pack Athens is the only one that's iffy but they still played important, if not pivotal, roles in the Chremonidean War, Cretan War, Second Macedonian War and First Mithradatic War.

Again, none of which is to say the Aetolian and Achean leagues should not be in the game, they both should be represented as minors (possibly a Greek leagues pack for them somewhere down the line), but at the start date Athens and Sparta still have some stomping left in them.

[Anna_Gein]

Would love to see Aetolia and Achea, by all means they should be included.

But, in 270 BC, which is the supposed start date, Athens and Sparta still have a last gasp against Macedon called the Chremoniadean War that has yet to happen. Also Sparta is arguably more powerful than the Achean League as the Acheans needed Macedonian help to put down Sparta in the Cleomenian War in the 220s BC.

Even if you consider the Chremoniadean War there is nothing impressive with Athens and Sparta.

Athens did not managed to carry any offensive operation and was then a puppet state for the rest of its existence.

The Spartan force didn't managed to pass Corinth as they were block by the Macedonian Garrison. They did not even managed to face the main Macedonian force yet they were so weakened after that they would be out of geopolitical game for 30 years. Then fight in the Cleomenean War before been out for 30 years once again before their final demise in the Laconian War.

Sparta could still be interesting from a pure gameplay PoV but Athens is completely out of place? As for political importance things are simple : despite some impressive actions during the Cleomenean War Sparta did not had the power to support its ambition as regional power. Although the Achaean League suffered defeats on the battlefield and needed on occasion help from allies (or even enemies) it was well able to sustain multiple war in short period.

Two years after the end of the Cleomenean War, the Achaean League was fighting with Macedon against the Aetolian League.

[Jokern]

One day my brain will melt because of too many threads like this one.

That will be a happy day.

[Dan113112]

Oh, how long must I wait for a realism mod. Seriously, though. It's not as big of a deal as the OP makes it out to be. By the way OP, CA has consulted historians and done their research, but, Jack Lusted himself even confirmed that they were going to make certain sacrifices for gameplay reasons.

@Mausolos of Caria: I actually don't think it's that big of a deal. If we were to do it your way we'd have to include way more Briton, Gallic, or even Germanic tribes to make it more historically accurate. Can't play cultural favorites now can we? I will happily play the vanilla game and wait for a realism mod to come.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Epiros is in 264 BC (the assumed start date) not really important anymore and it doesn't own Thessaly like it does in the game. Had they put in Epiros with a game start at 280 BC, then they would have been a great choice, but in the 260s the Aitolian League makes much more sense, especially with the future ahead for both of them and the roles they played (or played not) in the Roman- Macedonian wars.

Oh, how long must I wait for a realism mod. Seriously, though. It's not as big of a deal as the OP makes it out to be. By the way OP, CA has consulted historians and done their research, but, Jack Lusted himself even confirmed that they were going to make certain sacrifices for gameplay reasons.

@Mausolos of Caria: I actually don't think it's that big of a deal. If we were to do it your way we'd have to include way more Briton, Gallic, or even Germanic tribes to make it more historically accurate. Can't play cultural favorites now can we? I will happily play the vanilla game and wait for a realism mod to come.

Well personally I think the central regions like Asia Minor or Greece should be depicted in more detail and with more factions, especially if we have so many. Yes, Greece was very crowded by different factions fighting each other, while Germania was only thinly populated. I don't see the problem in making it like that in the game, thus we'd feel a bigger difference between playing Sparta and playing Suebi, campaign map wise. No one ever complained about the steppes having less regions per a certain size than Italy, and similarly Greece should have significantly more regions than an equally big part of Central and Eastern Europe.

[Mortarion]

Because of gameplay, because they are popular. Most people have heard of Sparta and Athens, not many people know what the archaean league is, also the game is about making your own history. Wouldn't it be boring, if all the factions where 100% accurate. And the campaign had to go a certain way, you couldn't eliminate the Roman Empire after 30 turns, because they HAD! to stay ingame untill the end. And other factions would automatically be destroyed, like in real history. No matter how good they are ingame... sometimes the fun and gameplay is more important.

[Xanthippus of Sparta]

Its not something minor, were not looking for accurate scabbards on Illirian spearmen, all we want is a map that's not make believe! Where the hell are the Achaean and Aetolian leagues?! At the point in history the game supposedly starts at these are the only two factions in mainland Europe that actually have some power and influence! :-O Epirus at this time was falling appart from inside and out, Athens spent most of its time under Macedonian rule and without an army, and Sparta was two decades away from a foreign power walking into the city and deposing the king! ( assuming the game starts right after the 1st Punic war) . So why the hell is CA making rookie mistakes? -Instead of wasting time on faceless factions like the Iceni maybe they could have looked at a fraking map, or spent some time consulting with a historian. Whats next? - a Dacian faction stretching all the way to Macedonia cause they were too lazy to program in some fraking Thracians and Moesians?!

I feel you.

Epirus is the one I really don't understand.

Generally through this period, Epirus was closely tied to the Ptolemies (who were largely responsible for its existence to begin with) just like the Achaeans were subservient to Macedon and the Aetolians were associated with the Seleucids. So, any argument that the Aetolians and Achaeans aren't playable because they were controlled by other major factions is largely bunk.

I'm shocked there's not a Pergamon (simply because Epirus doesn't really have the casual cred that Athens and Sparta have)...

...but not shocked CA chose Athens to be playable over, say, Rhodes...although I'd argue the Rhodians would have been funner and closer to what CA is portraying the Hellenistic Athenians as (a strong naval and trading power).

While its best times were clearly in the past, the Spartans did at least attempt a comeback and had to be subdued by a large coalition led by Antigonus Doson in 220 BC.

[RexImperator]

While its best times were clearly in the past, the Spartans did at least attempt a comeback and had to be subdued by a large coalition led by Antigonus Doson in 220 BC.

Subdued is a strong word, they were back up and fighting in the Social War of 220-217, The First Macedonian War from 210-207, a brief spell in the Cretan War 205-200, and finally the War Against Nabis in 195.

For Epirus it really depends on the start date, if it's late 270s they still had a shot at greatness (judging by the map of the territories they control Pyrrhus may still be alive at the start date).

[Xanthippus of Sparta]

Subdued is a strong word, they were back up and fighting in the Social War of 220-217, The First Macedonian War from 210-207, a brief spell in the Cretan War 205-200, and finally the War Against Nabis in 195.

For Epirus it really depends on the start date, if it's late 270s they still had a shot at greatness (judging by the map of the territories they control Pyrrhus may still be alive at the start date).

Fair, although Doson did march his victorious army through Sparta itself (the first time this had happened, ever) and Cleomenes fled for a permanent exile in Alexandria.

Interesting point about Pyrrhus.

[Caelifer_1991]

I'm fine with CA's decision to choose Athens and Sparta over the leagues. In the centuries following the classical era of Greek history, the Greek city states seemed to form a new league like it was a yearly festival... Athens and Sparta though are timeless, and always will be.

[Mausolos of Caria]

I'm fine with CA's decision to choose Athens and Sparta over the leagues. In the centuries following the classical era of Greek history, the Greek city states seemed to form a new league like it was a yearly festival... Athens and Sparta though are timeless, and always will be.

Sorry, but the Achaian League already existed before Athens introduced it's democracy

[magpie]

Hmm I suppose Athens and Sparta were going through a period of austerity.
CA does their own thing anyway when it comes to their games.
A lot can go under the heading of alternative reality which is what their games are about.
Its left to the player to build an empire or fail or even mod their games to suit an individuals tastes.

[Sabre120]

Sometimes you have to respect the fact that gameplay takes precendence over historical accuracy.