Why is the political situation in Greece historically inaccurate?

[The new pope eats pizza]

Its not something minor, were not looking for accurate scabbards on Illirian spearmen, all we want is a map that's not make believe! Where the hell are the Achaean and Aetolian leagues?! At the point in history the game supposedly starts at these are the only two factions in mainland Europe that actually have some power and influence! :-O Epirus at this time was falling appart from inside and out, Athens spent most of its time under Macedonian rule and without an army, and Sparta was two decades away from a foreign power walking into the city and deposing the king! ( assuming the game starts right after the 1st Punic war) . So why the hell is CA making rookie mistakes? -Instead of wasting time on faceless factions like the Iceni maybe they could have looked at a fraking map, or spent some time consulting with a historian. Whats next? - a Dacian faction stretching all the way to Macedonia cause they were too lazy to program in some fraking Thracians and Moesians?!

[Elitewolf]

I shall never understand why people get so worked about stuff (from little details to larger details) in an unfinished game.

[Sun Jetzu]

hmmmmmmmmm idk i think mostly you and wikipedia know this info, so for sales and for the happyness of the total war player, we like having athens, sparta and epirus in the game. Let the little guy have a chance at being a super power.

[The Juggernaut]

Because Athens and Sparta are city-states that people KNOW. We are the one percent. Most of us here on TWCenter understand what you're talking about when you say Achaean League, or we know where to look to find out. We've read Xenophon, Caesar, and the like. But consider the vast amount of people that CA's market is reaching. They're exactly ike I was when I first started playing Total War: mildly interested in history, but largely uneducated, and drawn in because they KNOW the names. Anyone who knows the history of antiquity will have heard of Macedon, or Carthage, or heaven forbid Sparta. Sure, the Iceni or the Suebi are kinda out there, but a quick look and everyone goes "OOOH, Germans!". To have two random Greek leagues instead would be off-putting to your average consumer. It's a marketing decision, plus a cool campaign idea; can you bring a dying power back to it's former glory? While it might not be historically accurate, it's a good decision by CA.

Oh, and BTW I love your screen name OP.

[Sabre120]

Because Athens and Sparta are city-states that people KNOW. We are the one percent. Most of us here on TWCenter understand what you're talking about when you say Achaean League, or we know where to look to find out. We've read Xenophon, Caesar, and the like. But consider the vast amount of people that CA's market is reaching. They're exactly ike I was when I first started playing Total War: mildly interested in history, but largely uneducated, and drawn in because they KNOW the names. Anyone who knows the history of antiquity will have heard of Macedon, or Carthage, or heaven forbid Sparta. Sure, the Iceni or the Suebi are kinda out there, but a quick look and everyone goes "OOOH, Germans!". To have two random Greek leagues instead would be off-putting to your average consumer. It's a marketing decision, plus a cool campaign idea; can you bring a dying power back to it's former glory? While it might not be historically accurate, it's a good decision by CA.

Totally in agreement with this to be honest.

[torongill]

At the point in history the game supposedly starts at these are the only two factions in mainland Europe that actually have some power and influence!

Sorry, what? The Romans controlled Italy, the Cisalpine Gauls were scarier, the Macedonians were holding pretty much everything that was worth the effort. The Achaean and Aetolian leagues were like two ten-year old fighting over a Snickers, while the senior students are fighting over who gets to take the lunch money from the whole schoolyard.

As a matter of fact the Spartan and Athenian factions are representatives of the two leagues. It's not possible to depict the crazy patchwork quilt that were these leagues. Something's gotta give and there should be some marketing appeal. So you do have two Hellenic factions with a more or less equivalent strength to the two leagues and they're led by the two best known Greek cities. Instead of whining about historical accuracy, better be grateful that you do have two playable Greek factions instead of one "Greek Cities" faction.

[Little Legionaire]

As a matter of fact the Spartan and Athenian factions are representatives of the two leagues. It's not possible to depict the crazy patchwork quilt that were these leagues. Something's gotta give and there should be some marketing appeal. So you do have two Hellenic factions with a more or less equivalent strength to the two leagues and they're led by the two best known Greek cities. Instead of whining about historical accuracy, better be grateful that you do have two playable Greek factions instead of one "Greek Cities" faction.

That's... Quite convincing

It's so easy understand why CA picked "Atene" and "Sparta" names instead Achean and Aetolian ones... I'd call that a wise decision. While covering the historic accuracy they choose known names by many. By their accurate and well placed content decision we get three Hellenic faction.

There's no need to be obsessed by names and titles. It's understandable to a degree but that's all. Epirus, Athens, Sparta, Makedons, Pontus, Ptolemaics... It's just wonderful guys

[Ichon]

Sorry, what? The Romans controlled Italy, the Cisalpine Gauls were scarier, the Macedonians were holding pretty much everything that was worth the effort. The Achaean and Aetolian leagues were like two ten-year old fighting over a Snickers, while the senior students are fighting over who gets to take the lunch money from the whole schoolyard.

As a matter of fact the Spartan and Athenian factions are representatives of the two leagues. It's not possible to depict the crazy patchwork quilt that were these leagues. Something's gotta give and there should be some marketing appeal. So you do have two Hellenic factions with a more or less equivalent strength to the two leagues and they're led by the two best known Greek cities. Instead of whining about historical accuracy, better be grateful that you do have two playable Greek factions instead of one "Greek Cities" faction.

Yep. It would be nice to have factions named historically but really the patchwork of the leagues would be difficult to depict while Athens and Sparta are representative members of each league even if fallen from their glorious heights. Name recognition is also important to many players who wouldn't know which league is what but immediately recognize Sparta and Athens.

[RexImperator]

Yep. It would be nice to have factions named historically but really the patchwork of the leagues would be difficult to depict while Athens and Sparta are representative members of each league even if fallen from their glorious heights. Name recognition is also important to many players who wouldn't know which league is what but immediately recognize Sparta and Athens.

Except neither Athens or Sparta was member of either league (to be fair Sparta was forced into the Achean League for a while but in a very subservient role, and then the league was dissolved). And I'd hardly call it a patchwork of leagues. Achean held territory in the Northern Peloponnese and the Aetolian Legue in Aetolia. The Boetian, Phocean and Thessalian Leagues were unimportant and/or puppets of Macedon and the Nesiotic (Island) League was either a puppet of Egypt, Macedon or Rhodes depending on the year. Achea and Aetolia are the only ones the should (or need to be) be depicted as independent factions as the others can be depicted as Macedonian Territory.

[Sherm]

We all know from the day of the announcement that in this game we will find many inaccurate things.
But personally I'm surprised in positive about how better is the situation respect previous total war games.

[Ichon]

Except neither Athens or Sparta was member of either league (to be fair Sparta was forced into the Achean League for a while but in a very subservient role, and then the league was dissolved). And I'd hardly call it a patchwork of leagues. Achean held territory in the Northern Peloponnese and the Aetolian Legue in Aetolia. The Boetian, Phocean and Thessalian Leagues were unimportant and/or puppets of Macedon and the Nesiotic (Island) League was either a puppet of Egypt, Macedon or Rhodes depending on the year. Achea and Aetolia are the only ones the should (or need to be) be depicted as independent factions as the others can be depicted as Macedonian Territory.

Sparta was a bit more active than simply forced into it but you are correct Athens wasn't a member of either league- I was just remembering anti-Macedonian dalliance with Ptolemies but that ended early in the timeline of game and if Athens starts as Macedonian client it appears CA is somewhat aware of the history so it is more difficult to explain its status as a faction other than name recognition. Looking more closely at maps it might not be as hard to get somewhat close to Aetolian league territory at least, maybe not as much for Achaean league though.

[eLus1on]

For some reason I have a strong feeling this dude is someone known to this forum but don't wanna come out as the real-himself :p

[Mausolos of Caria]

Torongill, I think he means the main factions in Greece. And I don't really say a problem in depicting the league like normal factions, both are playable in RTR VII and the accurate map makes their campaigns quite nice (even though the Achaian campaign is extremely hard). I still hope the Achaian and Aitolian League will be there on the map, the OP makes some good points insofar as without them this Greece would be like Egypt in RTW 1- totally out of the timeframe.

[Sebastianus Somerus]

I think they will be included as non playable. Because there are 117 factions and 57 provinces. This means that there will be multiple factions per province. So maybe the Pelopponesos will have Sparta Conrinth and another big city owned bij the Achaean League. I hope it'll be like this.

[torongill]

Yeah, I know he might be talking about European Greece, but even in that case his statement is ridiculous - the Macedonians and the Epirotes had more influence on mainland Greece than the two Greek leagues. Hell, The Ptolemaic and Seleucid Empires probably had more influence on mainland Greece.

@Sebastianus, there are 183 regions. 183. The provinces are a new concept that allows the player to manage his regions without needing to check on every single region. Less micromanaging if you have all the regions from that province. For example, the Arverni start with a single region in the province of Aquitania. If the Arverni manage to conquer Limonum and Burdigala they will control the whole province and would be able to manage it just from the Burdigala city.

Another example - The Macedonians control the region of Pella. If they capture Apollonia and Larissa they will control the whole province of Macedonia(and manage it from Pella). If they manage to capture Antheia, Odessos and Naissos they will control the whole province of Thrace and will be able to manage it from Pulpudeva.

So no, there won't be an Achaean or Aetolian faction. There will be Sparta and Athens.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Y
So no, there won't be an Achaean or Aetolian faction. There will be Sparta and Athens.

Maybe for game play reason the first goal for Sparta is to form the Aetolian League and Athens Achaean League before taking on the world ?

[Sharpe]

Maybe for game play reason the first goal for Sparta is to form the Aetolian League and Athens Achaean League before taking on the world ?

YES. Good thinking there boss.

Considering the Iceni, Seubi and Arverni are capable of this it would not surprise me if Sparta and Athens are.

[Sun Jetzu]

YES. Good thinking there boss.

Considering the Iceni, Seubi and Arverni are capable of this it would not surprise me if Sparta and Athens are.

it would be fun to have an alliance that worked kinda like a super faction.

[Jokern]

Maybe for game play reason the first goal for Sparta is to form the Aetolian League and Athens Achaean League before taking on the world ?

Now that you mention it, Athens' faction description does mention it being able to form the Athenian/Delian League. Sparta will probably be able to form the Spartan/Peloponnesian League.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Now that you mention it, Athens' faction description does mention it being able to form the Athenian/Delian League. Sparta will probably be able to form the Spartan/Peloponnesian League.

Yes. If you remember the Rome faction preview there's already an Etruscan League probably made of around 3 or 4 minor factions like Veii, Arrentium etc opposing Rome from the north, each can be conquered separately.

Some more...

http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Total_War...Athens_Faction

Forever influential, but still not fully independent of Macedonian rule, Athens has the opportunity to break free and potentially found a third Athenian League, asserting authority over long term allies and adversaries alike, such as Sparta, Thebes and Corinth.

Do it sounds like Athens starts as a vassal to Macedonia with the early goal is to break free (declare war etc) and formed their own league ?