Technology trees

**Rhaegar1** · May 16, 2013, 12:28 PM

Dear CA and forum-buddies

As a RPG-player the idea of several technology trees the idea appeals alot to me. The problem is that up to now they simply do not 'work' for me. I can't pinpoint the reason exactly but here is my idea how in the future (I understand it's now to late to implement this for TWR2) I think that they can be tweaked so that they might interest me more.

I think for me it would help when instead of researching technologies for a certain amount of turns you as a player would receive a research point for every number of turns (let's say 5). After you received a research point you get a pop up in that turn saying: "You've got research points to spend" or the research button lights up. Then you can go to the research trees and you can choose where to invest that point.

The difference seems to be small but the method I described has been proven by many RPG's to be a great way of doing it and the big advantage towards the current system is that currently when you choose a technology to invest your time in, you have to wait untill it's done being researched. In my system when you choose which technology you like you immidiately can invest you research point and benefit from it.

I think for me it would help quit a bit, you lose the risk that you forget to look at your research and see that the pc automatically started researching som technology you don't want.

Of course for the sake of replayability it should be obvious that at most lets say 2 out of 3 trees can be filled out completely in 300 turns.

Thanks for listening!

**boblikesoup** · May 16, 2013, 12:44 PM

I like that it is active, as opposed to passive, but it takes away from the realism/long-term planning. I like that you must made a decision about what to research in advance. You might decide on farming for econ gain, but the next turn a barbarian hoard arrives at your doorstep and you really wish you'd researched a military formation. I think the way it is allows for more strategy.

**Argon Viper** · May 17, 2013, 12:59 AM

The current system represents the idea that you have dedicated a group of people to working on something. While real technological progress comes from the random research conducted by individuals, that's hard to represent in a game.

In this case, research is a time-limited good, it must be used immediately (guy has to be in the lab) or it is lost. What you are proposing is that research is basically a "stored" good like grain or iron and can simply be used when and where you feel is appropriate.

I feel like the current system is a bit more realistic.

**ptoss1** · May 17, 2013, 01:49 AM

Technology should just be random. Like you get a choice by chance and you get modifiers to get more chance.
Like if you're at peace for a long time you get more economic chances and if you're at war for a long time you get more military chances.
And then you get more random chances to get bonuses like better metallurgy or idk stronger buildings, better defences.

**Argon Viper** · May 17, 2013, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by ptoss1

Technology should just be random. Like you get a choice by chance and you get modifiers to get more chance.
Like if you're at peace for a long time you get more economic chances and if you're at war for a long time you get more military chances.
And then you get more random chances to get bonuses like better metallurgy or idk stronger buildings, better defences.

I'd be down with this system, it seems quite realistic.

However, given the choice between assigning a focus and retroactively saying "oh yes, I was working on this the whole time *wink**wink*", I'll take the former.

**Rhaegar1** · May 17, 2013, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by Argon Viper

I'd be down with this system, it seems quite realistic.

However, given the choice between assigning a focus and retroactively saying "oh yes, I was working on this the whole time *wink**wink*", I'll take the former.

I'm not, it basically is a choice between a game like the the elder scrolls where you develop the way you move and a game like the wichter 2 where you can plan in which direction you develop yourself. I like it more when I can play it out, it gives me more control.

**ptoss1** · May 17, 2013, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by Rhaegar1

I'm not, it basically is a choice between a game like the the elder scrolls where you develop the way you move and a game like the wichter 2 where you can plan in which direction you develop yourself. I like it more when I can play it out, it gives me more control.

Idk. I've always felt like randomization presented a better emulation of real life than a player specific decision.
Mind you the system I'm suggesting will be affected by the player, similar to the Elder Scrolls type, where you get better rewards for the type of skill you choose to use.
Tech trees never really made sense from an ancient world perspective because scientic advancement wasn't a government funded goal. When it did happen, it's the exception rather than the rule. When innovations are discovered, it's usually do to necessity rather than a conscious effort separate from practical usage.

**SamueleD** · May 17, 2013, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by Rhaegar1

I'm not, it basically is a choice between a game like the the elder scrolls where you develop the way you move and a game like the wichter 2 where you can plan in which direction you develop yourself. I like it more when I can play it out, it gives me more control.

Well, basically with ES, you have to plan the way you move

Anyway, I think that the current system is appropriate, real research is a mix of randomness ad dedicated focus on a field, it's not like,"oh, hey, we have accumulated genius points, you can now spend them in military or economic technology, or pure science, if you prefer"; that's just silly. The current system is not too "gameplay intensive", you just have to check the tech three form time to time and notice the "research completed" notification, and it represents the "research focus thing", so I think it's pretty good. My favourite TW tech research was the one for Empire, were you could actually get a technological advantage over other nations, the Shogun 2 one being the worse, imo.

**Argon Viper** · May 18, 2013, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Rhaegar1

I'm not, it basically is a choice between a game like the the elder scrolls where you develop the way you move and a game like the wichter 2 where you can plan in which direction you develop yourself. I like it more when I can play it out, it gives me more control.

Elder Scrolls is a great game, but I'm not a huge fan of the development system. How much sense does it make that you can get better at armory by doing a lot of marksmanship? Planning ahead is the key to this game, as Kenios mentioned about the building system. If you want to research better shields, you should have your researchers focus on shields for the amount of time it takes to develop that research.

The system you're suggesting sounds a lot to me like quantum mechanics. "I wasn't watching my researchers for a long time, so when I do look at them it turns out they could have been researching anything!"

Sorry if I come across as a bit sarcastic; I'm not trying to be rude, just to illustrate the basic problem I have with that kind of system

**Jokern** · May 17, 2013, 04:16 AM

I prefer the current system in TW, but I think it would be better if only the techs you can research atm are visible.

**Kenios** · May 17, 2013, 04:27 AM

Technology tree is like an investment. It is like investing 8 turns to build a citadel. You put in the cost in advance and hope to reap its returns in the future. There's some strategy and planning involved. It shouldn't be a case of "Okay, I was building a citadel for 7 turns and now I realize I should have built a farm. Okay, I shall now transfer all my citadel building progress into the farm, so the farm will be instantly built"

**SamueleD** · May 17, 2013, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by Kenios

Technology tree is like an investment. It is like investing 8 turns to build a citadel. You put in the cost in advance and hope to reap its returns in the future. There's some strategy and planning involved. It shouldn't be a case of "Okay, I was building a citadel for 7 turns and now I realize I should have built a farm. Okay, I shall now transfer all my citadel building progress into the farm, so the farm will be instantly built"

Exactly, if you realize that you wasted 10 turns researching the wrong tech, well, that is your problem. But in the end, it's not that bad, if you researched the farm you can use the money you get from it to train more soldiers, if you researched the soldiers you can go around sacking cities and looting provinces to get your money

**ptoss1** · May 17, 2013, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Kenios

Technology tree is like an investment. It is like investing 8 turns to build a citadel. You put in the cost in advance and hope to reap its returns in the future. There's some strategy and planning involved. It shouldn't be a case of "Okay, I was building a citadel for 7 turns and now I realize I should have built a farm. Okay, I shall now transfer all my citadel building progress into the farm, so the farm will be instantly built"

Sounds like Civ.
Somebody built a wonder before you? Well that's ok, as a consolation prize, you can now scrap your construction and turn it into gold.
Makes sense no?

**Gugg** · May 18, 2013, 06:32 AM

I feel like the problem with this idea is that it wouldn't make any difference. You would still choose the same tech options as the ones you would be if were the turn system. As the best upgrades can't be unlocked until you've researched all the earlier ones, you would still make the same choices no matter what. Maybe just in a different order, but still.