will the skirmishers be usefull this time?

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Usually in RTWI the skirmishers were completely useless ... ofc trying to use them in an historicla way , they all time could easily be charged fast by the first line of enemies or rolled over by the cavalry right behind the first lines, not talking of the archers ...

even when retreating they took too much time by stopping , turning side and then start running backward ... this gived the enemy enough time to reach them and slaughter ...

In RTWII to be effective shoudl be able to move really fast and I do not talk of speed of running but of manouvering speed, no wait times, they shoudl be very responsive and quick to manouver back and foward ... also the skirmish mode shoudl be actually working ... its useless when the skirmishers take 5 seconds when near the enemy befour starting to thorw their javelins ...

[Semper_Fidelis]

I agree although they were useful against elephants and they were decently cheap.

[Reptilicus]

I hope they are more useful this time,so to speak of,they were dirt cheap in the campaign,loved the heavy peltasts the Greek cities would have,but not much use in MP,even peasants were better for "cannon fodder",if you`d really have to bring them in the first place. Maybe they could even be useful in Rome II as a "scout" unit on the battlefield,if for some reason you ain`t using light cavalry for that role.

[maximusdecimusm]

Usually in RTWI the skirmishers were completely useless ... ofc trying to use them in an historicla way , they all time could easily be charged fast by the first line of enemies or rolled over by the cavalry right behind the first lines, not talking of the archers ...

even when retreating they took too much time by stopping , turning side and then start running backward ... this gived the enemy enough time to reach them and slaughter ...

In RTWII to be effective shoudl be able to move really fast and I do not talk of speed of running but of manouvering speed, no wait times, they shoudl be very responsive and quick to manouver back and foward ... also the skirmish mode shoudl be actually working ... its useless when the skirmishers take 5 seconds when near the enemy befour starting to thorw their javelins ...

I read somewhere that Romans can now throw pila while running, so presumably skirmishers can run and throw at the same time too. That should help.

[Sandraker]

In areas with bad visibility they'll be far more useful. They can move fast, they are (hopefully) harder to spot than cavalry, deal good damage with their javelins and escape out of sight very quickly. I bet a well used skirmisher unit could give heavy cavalry units quite a run for their money.

[koovie]

You will definitely need light and fast units for scouting since this is gonna be the first TW game that has line of sight!

[M2TWRocks]

Everything you said is spot on, Prometheus. I tried over and over again to use them in interesting ways only to find they were just pointless. The problem lay in the design. Here's what happened whenever I used them.

1) Set them up before main line as they were used historically.
2) Then two possibilities as enemies approached: a) Enemy has cavalry closing on my skirmishers, which forced me to retreat them to rear. (This actually makes sense historically.) b) Enemy infantry would advance. Once enemy infantry was within the short range of my skirmishers, they would cock back and slowly turn towards the enemy as though they were in some sort of "loading" their weapon animation. By the time they were ready to fire, the infantry had closed with them and cut them to shreds.

I always felt like this could be resolved by giving the skirmishers two ranges. The first would be an awareness range which was about double that of their firing range. Once enemy was within awareness range, they would turn towards them and prepare to fire. Then as the enemy came into firing range, they would all fire simultaneously at least one volley before retreating.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Usually in RTWI the skirmishers were completely useless ... ofc trying to use them in an historicla way , they all time could easily be charged fast by the first line of enemies or rolled over by the cavalry right behind the first lines, not talking of the archers ...

Then you are using them wrong.You put your archers behind your infantry.Your skirmishers kill the enemy while engaged.You do not send them out into the open to be killed by horse charges.
Or you can have 1 infantry then a skirmisher and so on in a line.If they get charged the infantry blocks this like chess.The skirmishers need never be killed.When they run out of ammo they can then charge into the side of engaged troops.

[Furious Mental]

Using light infantry in the manner that they have always been used (forward of the main body of a force) should not be "wrong". They are called "skirmishers" for a reason.

What would also be interesting, apart from skirmishers that are actually useful, is heavy infantry that can fight "ekdromoi" style (unarmoured and fast) against skirmishers.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

If the AI was told to send skirmishers against skirmishers it would be ok.But as soon as a human sees archers out in the open the horse charge begins.Sometimes I lay traps and leave a nit out for this to happen but I have hidden units ready to surprize them.In this game the line of sight and the ability to hide troops has changed and I think skirmishers will be more usefull as they can hide better.


The other day I was playing Empire and told my cannon to kill the general and he ran off as soon as I clicked to fire.He has the ability to see into the future and should not react like that.He should only move after I shoot at him not before.

[oOIYvYIOo]

All units are useful ,it always depends the use you give to them nothing more.

[kamikazee786]

well this new line of sight system will definitely make skirmishers and light infantry valuable for their scouting roles as well as add greater realism,

remember that the line of sight system can be used to your own advantage, realistically in a battle, the enemy army usually never sees the other sides scouts, but the scouts have already seen them and have relayed the information back to the main army

send your scouts out like you would send a spy on the campaign map
in such a way that you will be able to see the enemy, but the enemy wont be able to see you

this way your scouts and light infantry will be safe and will not be attacked by the enemy, because the enemy doesn't even know your there

so in a sense your stalking your enemy to see their movements on the battlefield and your main army can then react accordingly

this is most realistic

[jaca42]

I agree with this, it's really annoying when your skirmishers/archers decide to run in circles on the spot when the enemy approaches especially when you're trying to manage other units at the same time. However something interesting i noticed in the battle of teutoburg forest walkthrough was that when ever the romans were running if they got hit by arrow fire they would stop for a brief moment, raise their shields and continue with their jog, now this could just be an alpha thing like a bug in the transition of animations, but if it is an actual feature it could mean that melee infantry in general will be slowed down by the first volley of arrows/javelines (having to raise their shields to protect themselves) giving us those precious few seconds to pull back our skirmishers/archers.

[torongill]

I think by skirmishers he refers to javelineers like the psiloi, peltastas, velites, etc. The archers and slingers are missile troops, range troops if you will.

I certainly hope that the skirmishers are useful and the fact that javelins can be discharged on the run is reassuring. The real problem for me lies in something else - the fact that cavalry can run through friendly heavy infantry formations without causing any damage. If the player tries to use his skirmishers in a historical manner, often the result is that enemy cavalry, situated in the center behind enemy lines, runs through the infantry formations to attack your skirmishers. If there was some kind of impediment that prevents that from happening the entire combat can change dramatically - no more suicide charges of the enemy cavalry or enemy general charging to a valorous and pointless death that handicap the AI army in the first seconds of the fight. To counter the skirmishers the enemy would have to bring his own skirmishers or use quick-footed light infantry to drive them away. Also, if skirmisher javelins get a perceptibly longer range, their usefulness will be increased. We know that the range of heavy javelins like the pilum was limited, but that light javelins often had leather string loops that gave them a maximum range that should be seen to be believed - IIRC one French general made tests in the 19th century. He discovered that a loop increased the range of a light javelin that can be thrown around 30 meters, to 70 meters.
If that or similar kind of range is applied to skirmisher weapons, that would make them much more useful. However, only for infantry skirmishers - cavalry skirmishers wouldn't be able to use those on account of having to use both hands to fix the loop around the fingers. Plus, the speed of their horses will add to the range of their missiles and to the overall survivability of the unit.

[Azmodin]

Well the normal skirmishers I found a bit useless cause in skirmish mode they never did what they should, they ran, stopped and got ready to throw but then before throwing they again started to run

But I really liked the Greek heavy Peltasts, placed behind the frontline infantry. I always let them throw all their javelins and then charge into the enemys flank (they were pretty nice light infantry with their big shields and their swords).
That was sometimes really nice cause the greeks had only phalanx troops, so with the heavy Peltasts I had for my playstyle also a light infantry unit with swords available.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

I think that the main problem in using skirmishers is that they are too slow in obeying orders and that they take too long to run from incoming enemies... They should be more aware and definetly more quick in their reactions...

[Nicolaos]

I think that the main problem in using skirmishers is that they are too slow in obeying orders and that they take too long to run from incoming enemies... They should be more aware and definetly more quick in their reactions...

This.

[Mamertine]

I think that the main problem in using skirmishers is that they are too slow in obeying orders and that they take too long to run from incoming enemies... They should be more aware and definetly more quick in their reactions...

Exactly. In RTW the skirmishers were too slow to be effective. If you used skirmishers the way they were supposed to be used, the were worthless. Skirmishers either fired and would be caught and slaughtered by infantry or would ran away, turn to throw, and before they got the throw off would have to abandon the action and start running away again. Make skirmishers faster in R2TW, make them throw on the run, and make their throw animations shorter (this make skirmishers in M2TW beyond useless).

[Toho]

the only way I can think of making skirmishers useful is with a much faster attack speed, reload speed and a small % of running speed but yes the turning around and the unit movement is generally making skirmishers pretty useless.

[Emperor Domitianus]

In the first RTW skirmischers were useless. Only archers.