New Combat Submod

**GreatSword** · May 09, 2013, 06:42 AM

Hey all!

I am currently working on modding 1.5.1 for a new combat system. I would like to know if anyone out there would be interested in playing it when I am through. Should be just a couple weeks now. I really enjoy this mod, however after playing other mods, and warhammer itself for years now, I feel I could improve the combat for a more fun and "authentic" feel to the fighting. What I mean by this is changing up the units to reflect how they perform in the tabletop game/lore. The main reason it is difficult to simmulate is because there is no stat for "toughness" in total war. You can have hitpoints, which are great, but you cant really justify giving an orc 2 hit points and a man only 1, just because an orc is slightly tougher in the army book stats.

After playing the Barbarum mods, I thought there might be a way to portray this. By using a baseline hitpoint value of "2", instead of "1". This allows you to have a correct outcome from a fight between man vs orc, without giving the orcs too much armor or defense skill, because these are technically the armor and weapon skill from the table top game. So, taking the man and giving him 2 hp with sword, shield, armor or whatever, versus an orc with 3 hp and axe, chainmail, shield, you can achieve much closer results to what you'd expect!

Another thing I am working on is unit sizes and abilities, which are great at the moment, but I feel I could improve that as well. For example, halberds having the "phalanx" ability removed, but increasing the unit size slightly, and giving them an attack value that represents the bonus they would get in game by carrying a halberd. ie a larger attack than spearmem, only slightly higher than swordsmen. This is to show that just like in the table top, a halberd will take down tougher foes than a hand weapon or spear (but at the cost of some defensive ability).
Most of the values I have changed so far are very small moves, just tweaked enough to show the difference. But its a fun difference and really gives you a choice on what types of troops fit your style of battle!

Unit experience also slightly tweaked from in vanilla, because you can pump out troops with sliver chevrons like mad. I am an extreme roleplayer and I like the process of using a unit in battles and "leveling them up" to make them like true veterans of many campaigns. I will remove barrack experience bonuses from all factions, except for maybe the top level barracks giving one chevron. This really puts alot of value to your Veteran troops because they become superior to anything you can produce. (ie Legio Averheim XI Heavy Halberds have become some mean fighters! ;P)

The last thing i'll list here (but not the last i'll be tweaking) is Siege battles. As the attacker, I could hardly lose a siege fight. It was not a challenge to take the walls, mostly because of AI limitations. After playing the mod Thera, I noticed how much funner and challenging the siege fights were because the towers were much better at defending than in vanilla kingdoms/most mods. On the Defensive side, as of now it is pretty much impossible to defend a town/castle against 2 or more stacks from the AI. and EVERY scripted attack is 2 stacks in CoW. Having stronger wall defenses actually gives you a chance to fight off larger armies, and opens up a whole new tactical strategy when playing as the defender. (Historically in medieval warfare you would need a sieging force around 4 times the size of the defenders to be effective!) I cannot tell you how much more fun I am having in siege fights now. They are much more exciting, and epic.

These are a few things I am working on, there are some others as well and I wont spoil it all. Most changes are small, this is not a completely different game. I am only changing text in files, no skins or animations. But if anyone out there would like me to post it for a new experience, I will. Just let me know what you guys think!

-GreatSword

**IrishBlood** · May 09, 2013, 04:34 PM

I think its a fantastic idea and may i be the first to officially give you +rep for it!

I haven't played CoW in months and months and months as I had grown bored of it and was waiting for Reiksfarts hardcore fantasy mod, but because of the sheer amount of new content and models he's adding in I am afraid we will be waiting a long time!

May I suggest consulting with reiksfart as I THINK (not sure) he has already done a lot of work with re-balancing the unit stats to make them more table-top accurate.

**Reiksfart** · May 11, 2013, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by IrishBlood

May I suggest consulting with reiksfart as I THINK (not sure) he has already done a lot of work with re-balancing the unit stats to make them more table-top accurate.

I see no problem with more than one mod. There has always been multiple stat mods in the past, but most now don't work with the current version. Everyone who has their own ideas should always make the mod if they wish to, it is how mod communities thrive. Nothing will ever be the same, plus my mod is way more than just the new combat system. My 'combat system' still isn't even finished and it's been what? Think I started it just under two years ago. Lot of refining, testing and retesting, and still improving it with new ideas and re-thinking old.

Mine won't be released until after 1.6 is out either, which could be months away. Burned out at the moment, not done a lot. Hot weather here and been enjoying that, not been modding except mixing some more music for my mod.

**GreatSword** · May 11, 2013, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Reiksfart

I see no problem with more than one mod. There has always been multiple stat mods in the past, but most now don't work with the current version. Everyone who has their own ideas should always make the mod if they wish to, it is how mod communities thrive. Nothing will ever be the same, plus my mod is way more than just the new combat system. My 'combat system' still isn't even finished and it's been what? Think I started it just under two years ago. Lot of refining, testing and retesting, and still improving it with new ideas and re-thinking old.

Mine won't be released until after 1.6 is out either, which could be months away. Burned out at the moment, not done a lot. Hot weather here and been enjoying that, not been modding except mixing some more music for my mod.

Hey Riek,

Yes I def want you to create your own vision of warhammer and whatever battle system you come up with. I actually dont want to know what you have planned until I'm able to play it! I like playing various mods which each have their own flavor, it keeps the game interesting and a challenge to master a new tactical strategy. I really love warhammer mods above all others, the lore, history, people who play, everything. I do play other mods though and some of them have my favorite parts of other aspects of the game. Such as this mod having a battle "feel" that appeals more to me, or that mod which has epic siege battles. I take the ideas I like from every experience ive had so far, and try to combine it. No one can get everything right or perfect... thats just life. But by having more people playing, tweaking, editing, and testing, the higher the chance we will all stumble upon cooler and funner things. I wish everyone made mods, i'd try em all out if I could

**IrishBlood** · May 16, 2013, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Reiksfart

I see no problem with more than one mod. There has always been multiple stat mods in the past, but most now don't work with the current version. Everyone who has their own ideas should always make the mod if they wish to, it is how mod communities thrive. Nothing will ever be the same, plus my mod is way more than just the new combat system. My 'combat system' still isn't even finished and it's been what? Think I started it just under two years ago. Lot of refining, testing and retesting, and still improving it with new ideas and re-thinking old.

Mine won't be released until after 1.6 is out either, which could be months away. Burned out at the moment, not done a lot. Hot weather here and been enjoying that, not been modding except mixing some more music for my mod.

Dont get me wrong, I was not implying that he needed to ask you for permission, I was suggesting that he should consult you for tips and useful info and such

@Greatsword
I will be extremely happy if you make defending the walls plausible and fun. As it is now it is faaaaaar too tempting to simply retreat to the city square and defend it. In reality if a horde of beast men got across the walls then the city would burn and the town would be massacred while your men wait patiently in the town square! Theres just no real incentive to defend the wall!

**Reiksfart** · May 16, 2013, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by IrishBlood

Dont get me wrong, I was not implying that he needed to ask you for permission, I was suggesting that he should consult you for tips and useful info and such

Of course, that wasn't what I meant. Some people don't make their own submods because others are already making one along similar lines. CoW used to have a much more active submod section, some quite similar like stat mods, but it's died down. I'm just encouraging people to start making their own, even if they are small. It's not like any of us are making money from it, which would probably change things. Business can be ruthless.

**GreatSword** · May 09, 2013, 09:35 PM

Hey Irish,
Thanks, we may get a chance to talk about it. I'll go ahead with the stat changes I planned as ive already begun! I'd like to see some players get into it and give feedback, we may stumble upon something that CoW could use in the future. I'm all about improving gameplay, just trial and error kindof thing. I'll try to get this out in a few weeks and it should just be 4 or 5 of the data text files so no huge download. Like you said, the main thing will be a fresh experience with an already great mod

**opponentmule2** · May 10, 2013, 03:01 PM

Great Idea dude. However, I'm worried that by making units have 2-3 hit points each, I afraid that'll make already long line battles even longer.

Also, prehaps just increase the attack/defense value of a orc?

Let's say. If a human have 5 attack and 10 defense. Make a orc have around 8 attack 14 defense and etc.

Great idea on the siege battles though, I think it's unrealistic that a 17th century city wall fell from 10 rocks. It should be more like napolonic total war and etc. Where u have to bombard a place for 20 mins if u want to see some walls fall. Especially to da rock lobbas

**GreatSword** · May 11, 2013, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by opponentmule2

Great Idea dude. However, I'm worried that by making units have 2-3 hit points each, I afraid that'll make already long line battles even longer.

Also, prehaps just increase the attack/defense value of a orc?

Let's say. If a human have 5 attack and 10 defense. Make a orc have around 8 attack 14 defense and etc.

Great idea on the siege battles though, I think it's unrealistic that a 17th century city wall fell from 10 rocks. It should be more like napolonic total war and etc. Where u have to bombard a place for 20 mins if u want to see some walls fall. Especially to da rock lobbas

Hey Mule,
I understand what your concern is... longer battles mean less battles, which means less fun. However let me put your mind at ease... Ive been testing various units and armies vs each other on open ground and siege and I have yet to even come CLOSE to running out of time. I really dont even feel like the battles are much longer... but the infantry clashes are a bit more stable. Its a little harder for one army to run over top of another in 30 seconds like you can (and I do!!) in the current system.
Yes I could just increase defense and attack, but thats not really what im aiming for, because that has been done. I want to try something NEW and see where it goes. There is no stat for "Toughness" in kingdoms. In warhammer, you roll to hit (weapon skill) , roll to wound (toughness), and roll an armor save (armor). Then depending on how many wounds a unit has, they live or die. What im going for is keeping the attack values in line with a warhammer units strength, and weapon skill combined. And hit points will be the equal of toughness and wounds combined. Armor will be armorish, defense skill will be roughly related to weapon skill, with tweaking for balance.

Its more going for the correct "FEEL" during combat... because I have fought hundreds of table top warhammer battles since I was a kid. I pretty much can tell you with average rolls of the dice, what each round of combat will result in for say and orc unit with swords and shields vs a unit of halberdiers. Ive played so much I dont even need the models any more, I can look at the unit stats, what formation they are in, and roll dice in a "theoretical" battle. You'll have more humans attacking per orc because of the size differences on the bases... all of these things you just pick up over time after fighting your neighbors orcish horde every weekend for years and years ;P. Then you have the rich friend down the street that brings over his 50 model bretonnian knight army and crushes everyone in one massive charge! lol.

Anyways, im getting off subject... I'll start with 2hp for men, basic orcs and gors will have 3 (they are tougher), and the rest of the units will be based basically around that. I will be keeping goblins and most likely ungors at 1 hp, to keep the correct feel of how they perform in combat. (plus they are very tiny in CoW) Some of their other stats will be improved slightly though, because I dont want them to be useless, I want them to plug holes, protect flanks, and not fall to pieces with one volley of arrows.

**Lord Golog** · May 11, 2013, 04:45 AM

I've also been tweaking stats, and it's good to see others doing it as well. I've been tweaking the way gunpowder projectiles work, as well as improving generals and increasing the effectiveness of defensive walls.

**GreatSword** · May 11, 2013, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Golog

I've also been tweaking stats, and it's good to see others doing it as well. I've been tweaking the way gunpowder projectiles work, as well as improving generals and increasing the effectiveness of defensive walls.

Hey Golog,

Sweet, keep it up man, share ideas with me if you want, I have not tweaked any projectiles but I tell you, the "longrifles" such as the hochland and engineers weapons... do not fire as well as the handgunners. It seems sporadic and much slower. Maybe its just me im not sure. If you figure out how to fix those def let me know!

**Lord Golog** · May 11, 2013, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by GreatSword

Hey Golog,

Sweet, keep it up man, share ideas with me if you want, I have not tweaked any projectiles but I tell you, the "longrifles" such as the hochland and engineers weapons... do not fire as well as the handgunners. It seems sporadic and much slower. Maybe its just me im not sure. If you figure out how to fix those def let me know!

In the unit attributes for gun troops I removed the gunpowder_unit attribute, something I learned to do from another person here. Removing it makes all the soldiers in the unit fire at once, rather than taking turns. It seems to make them much more responsive to commands. I also gave them more ammunition, since they burn through it much faster. I went into projectiles and tweaked their accuracy to be less accurate than crossbows. As a result, gunpowder fulfills a role as being less accurate than crossbows and with a shorter range, but with much greater power. I'm not sure if that's how it works on tabletop, but it works very well in my tests.

**GreatSword** · May 20, 2013, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Lord Golog

In the unit attributes for gun troops I removed the gunpowder_unit attribute, something I learned to do from another person here. Removing it makes all the soldiers in the unit fire at once, rather than taking turns. It seems to make them much more responsive to commands. I also gave them more ammunition, since they burn through it much faster. I went into projectiles and tweaked their accuracy to be less accurate than crossbows. As a result, gunpowder fulfills a role as being less accurate than crossbows and with a shorter range, but with much greater power. I'm not sure if that's how it works on tabletop, but it works very well in my tests.

Yes removing the attribute made quite a huge change. I will only be doing this for the "elite" gunners, as it makes them much more powerful. good call

**GreatSword** · May 11, 2013, 06:43 AM

Guys I'm glad to see a few people taking interest, any more ideas please keep them coming, I enjoy simply talking about it on this forum. I'll list a few things here just so everyone knows what im working on and why.

1. Harder sieges (more fun, less boring, challenging as attacker, epic feel as defender vs massive odds)
2. Tweaked stats ( attack and defense stats will remain very close, with the exception of the hp change)(and some special units ieChosen/Vamps)
3. Unit abilities and traits change (no phalanx for halberds, various stamina changes and other abilities)
4. Bodyguards modification (Not all generals will be using the standard knights/greatswords cooky cutter units)
5. Barrack exp (this is huge for me, units will earn their exp on the battlefield... not sitting in a barracks)
6. Some building changes (first level buildings reduced build times, rewards you for taking settlements, doesnt punish you for expanding)
7. Ancillary changes (The hammer of sigmar giving bonus to attack for instance, perhaps just +1 for balance, but still....)
8. Ageing corrected (no more ageing 4 years in 12 turns!)

I'd like to hear more from you guys, speak your mind... tell me im an idiot it wont work, I dont care

. I like hearing new ideas and the conversation.

**ninja51** · May 11, 2013, 11:11 AM

This sounds pretty BA my friend, I'd definitely be interested in play testing this a bit for you

**GreatSword** · May 11, 2013, 11:45 AM

Great Ninja, I appreciate it!

**GreatSword** · May 11, 2013, 01:28 PM

2 Beastmen stacks try to take Loningbrook with Johann defending. New walls and towers make it possible to beat more than one stack with proper unit placement and tactics! (Johann had some good troops as well! ;P)

It shows I lost around 500, but I actually suffered many more casualties during the battle, Johanns potions healed quite a bit. You can see the units that were actually standing at the end, everything was full strength at start of battle.

I had very experienced halberdiers, greatswords, archers, a unit of golfags ogres (bad ass) and Johann (who is maxed out as a general). And I fought it a couple times so I knew what they were going to do... and the AI has slight downsyndrom... But you get the picture, at least it is possible now. The battle was EPIC!!

**ninja51** · May 13, 2013, 11:58 PM

That sounds like the perfect system to me, you could even have some variety by leaving that stat for the sharpshooters along with ramping up their accuracy to add both some uniqueness to them, and to increase the potential effectiveness of regular run of the mill gunmen if used correctly.

**boatie** · May 14, 2013, 10:44 PM

You have a volunteer, Good Sir! I love the sound of your changes.

**GreatSword** · May 19, 2013, 08:38 PM

Still working guys but its coming along and will be done soon! The plan is to post it here first and let you guys try it out, and give me feedback if you can. ANY feedback, what you like and what you dont. I will then tweak things a bit based on yalls experience, and then post it in the submod section for people to enjoy if they wish!