Are spear units actually better against cavalry than comparably priced sword units?

[Maklodes]

My question: are spear units' anti-cavalry bonus actually worth it, given spear units low stats otherwise?

A comparison of medium-grade, high-grade, and top-grade spear and sword units. (Sword units, I'd say, are always at least "medium grade." Spear units also include a "low grade" which doesn't really include any sword units: low grade spearmen include non-Italian spear militia, levy spearmen, Byzantine spearmen)

Example 1: Medium grade spear unit (dismounted Arab cavalry) vs. medium grade sword unit (urban militia)

They have the same unit size, and comparable cost (UM is a bit cheaper overall). DAC has a little less starting armor, although they upgrade to the same level. Same morale properties.

Difference: DAC has a +8 spear bonus. Urban militia has 4 higher attack (11 vs. 7) and 4 higher defense (7 vs. 3).

Example 2: High grade spear unit (dismounted Sipahi lancers) vs. high grade sword unit (dismounted feudal knights)

They have the same size. DFKs are a bit more costly to maintain, but DSLs are more costly to recruit. DSLs are a little less armored to start with, but they have the same ultimate level.

Difference: DSLs have a +8 spear bonus. DFKs have 4 higher attack (13 vs. 9) and 4 higher defense (8 vs. 4).

Example 3: Top grade spear unit (Papal guard) vs. top grade sword unit (dismounted Chrisitan guard)

Papal guard is 25% bigger (75 vs. 60 on normal size), 23% more costly to maintain (215 vs 175), and only costs 7% more to recruit (740 vs. 690). Papal guard starts with a little less armor, but upgrades to the DCG level. (DCG, interestingly, has no armor upgrades at all.)

Difference: Papal guard has +8 spear bonus. DCG has 4 higher attack (16 vs. 12) and 4 higher defense (9 vs. 5).

Basically, comparing comparable units, spear units seem to "pay" for their +8 anti-cavalry bonus with -4 to defense and -4 to attack compared to swordsmen. Even against cavalry, is that worth it?

Currently, my computer with M2TW on it is having problems, but do spear units do better against cavalry, comparing similarly costly units? Do dismounted sipahi lancers do better in sustained combat against cavalry than dismounted feudal knights? Does dismounted Arab cavalry do better against formed charges than urban militia?

I know that not everything is captured in the stats, and that spearmen and swordsmen use different animations, but I still wonder whether the spear advantages against cavalry are worth it compared to their quality issues.

Anyone have links to some good tests on this?

[Dude with the Food]

As you said yourself, there are no low-grade swordsmen. What are you going to spam in the early game if you didn't have spear militia?
Mailed Knights? Too expensive.
Town Militia? Just no.
Adoptees? If you want to handicap yourself.

And overall, +8 is very useful for fighting cavalry. Spearmen may be worse against infantry but also generally have bigger shields (not always) and can defend vital spaces better than swordsmen which can sometimes be more aggressive infantry.

[Maklodes]

I don't deny that low-grade spearmen have a role to play (the "I don't have anything else" role). My focus was really on higher-level spearmen, which are comparable to sword units in cost and availability. Basically, if you're playing Moors, then do you think "urban militia are my anti-infantry meatgrinders, dismounted Arab cavalry are my anti-cavalry specialists?" Or do you think "urban militia are better than dismounted Arab cavalry all-around (although they're about the same against cavalry), but maybe I'll recruit some DAC if I'm desperate?"

(Incidentally, I think that a low-grade "levy swordsmen" type unit would have about 9 attack, 5 defensive skill, a standard 6 shield, and cost about 250 florins. Come to think of it, they'd be Kurdish javelinmen without the javelins. )

[Aeratus]

In addition to the +8 offense bonus vs. cavalry, spearmen also have a defensive bonus against cavalry when in "bracing" mode.

The defensive bonus has never been fully quantified, but I believe you can notice a difference in that spearmen perform better when sitting there and taking cavalry charges (as opposed to counter-charging the cavalry), whereas non-spear infantry are generally better off counter-charging the cavalry rather than sitting there and taking the charge.

So in your example of DSL vs. DSK, I'd say that DSL has the advantage due to the "bracing mode" bonus.

[Sitalkes]

You are ignoring the hard-coded rock-paper-scissors features that you can't see, these ensure that spearmen will almost always beat cavalry and cavalry will almost always beat swordsmen, (and sworsmen beat spearmen) other things being equal. Played a battle last night where similar top-knotch French knight units charged straight into Italian spearmen and (better quality) armoured swordsmen/dismounted knights - the swordsmen were serverely beaten up and would have routed without a counter-charge from supporting cavalry, while the spearmen almost immediately routed their opponents.

[Maklodes]

Well, I tried out some different approaches. It looks like it's true that the +8 spear bonus against cavalry isn't cancelled out by the -4 to attack and -4 to defense that spear units suffer compared to sword units in general.

1. I control Egyptian Arab cavalry, and charge Moorish urban militia or Moorish dismounted Arab cavalry (one armor upgrade, to equalize armor between urban militia and dismounted arab cavalry) once and let the Arab cavalry keep fighting them in a slugfest after charging.

Three trials AC vs. UM:
AC victory: 18 AC remain, 15 UM remain
UM victory: 0 AC, 26 UM
AC victory: 2 AC, 7 UM

Three trials AC vs. DAC:
DAC victory: 8 AC remain, 35 DAC remain
DAC victory: 6 AC, 30 DAC
DAC victory: 5 AC, 34 DAC

2. I put the Moors in a village square, effectively negating cavalry charges, and attacked with Egyptian Arab cavalry once again.

Three trials AC vs. UM:
UM victory: 1 AC remains, 50 UM remain
UM victory: 1 AC, 39 UM
UM victory: 1 AC, 33 UM

Three trials AC vs. DAC:
DAC victory: 15 AC remain, 57 DAC remain
DAC victory: 9 AC, 55 DAC
DAC victory: 4 AC, 49 DAC

Update: Kill analysis:

Open field one-charge AC vs. UM:

1. 23 UM kills, 46 AC kills.
2. 41 UM kills, 35 AC kills
3. 39 UM kills, 54 AC kills

Total: 103 UM kills, 135 AC kills (0.76:1 ratio)

Open field one-charge AC vs. DAC:

1. 33 DAC kills, 26 AC kills
2. 35 DAC kills, 31 AC kills
3. 36 DAC kills, 27 AC kills

Total: 104 DAC kills, 84 AC kills (1.24:1 ratio)

Village square AC vs. UM:

1. 40 UM kills, 11 AC kills.
2. 40 UM kills, 22 AC kills
3. 40 UM kills, 28 AC kills

Total: 120 UM kills, 61 AC kills (1.97:1 ratio)

Village square AC vs. DAC:

1. 26 DAC kills, 4 AC kills
2. 32 DAC kills, 6 AC kills
3. 37 DAC kills, 12 AC kills

Total: 95 DAC kills, 22 AC kills (4.32:1 ratio)

While dismounted Arab cavalry outperformed urban militia in both the village square and the open field against Arab cavalry, the dismounted Arab cavalry's advantage seemed most pronounced in the village square. Spear units seem to outperform comparable swordsmen most not when they're receiving a formed charge, but when they're bogged down in combat.

[Sar1n]

What about differences in troop spacing, weight and reach? Offhand I don't know how important it is in M2, but in RTW it could be important...spearmen would take fewer losses because they could bog down cavalry more easily, and some long spears ccould reach enemy even from rear ranks.