will there be limits in M2TW?

**Barca Payne** · August 26, 2006, 07:57 AM

will there be limits to stuff like number of factions,citys and units allowed in M2TW or will there be no limits also if there are limits will you be able to put RTW and BI number factions,citys and units into M2TW as you can put BI number factions,citys and units into RTW

thanks

**ashbery76** · August 26, 2006, 08:10 AM

Yes there are limits.For some reason CA are not mod friendly even when the rest of the gaming world is trying their upmost to help mods.

**Pnutmaster** · August 28, 2006, 05:42 PM

I can forgive Sega for not creating a historically authentic game that rivals RTR in accuracy. On paper, history can appear to detract from playability. What I cannot accept is that Sega places so many hard coded limits on modders.

What exactly is the reasoning behind placing limits on units, models, factions, etc in Total War games? Does increasing the limit of said aspects of a game require extensive coding and stabilizing of the engine? I think it's creative sin that we're forced to place needless restrictions on our Total War mods. Imagine how orgasmic it would be if we could place hundreds of provinces on our campaign map, have unique models for every unit in the game, every notable power of a time period represented by a faction...

Can someone explain this before I rally a ragtag army of disgruntled arm chair generals and assault the Sega headquarters?

**Lusted** · August 28, 2006, 05:45 PM

What exactly is the reasoning behind placing limits on units, models, factions, etc in Total War games? Does increasing the limit of said aspects of a game require extensive coding and stabilizing of the engine? I think it's creative sin that we're forced to place needless restrictions on our Total War mods. Imagine how orgasmic it would be if we could place hundreds of provinces on our campaign map, have unique models for every unit in the game, every notable power of a time period represented by a faction...

If you want mods tht take 10 years to complete then yes no limits are a great idea. Limits help place a limit on what you do, and don't make you overstretch what you are doing.

**Pnutmaster** · August 28, 2006, 05:55 PM

Understood, but consider the case of so many current mods that make sacrifices to cope with the numerous hard coded limits. If a Mod team sets realistic goals for itself, isn't a game with a hard coded limit of say, 200 provinces and 99 factions more convenient? I can think of many mods that would willingly donate models between one another with the mutual desire to make battles more visually eclectic. A modder goes in, assigns the models to the appropriate units in model_battle and export_desc_unit and you have a more immersive gaming experience.

**Lusted** · August 28, 2006, 05:59 PM

Given the fact that most major mods took around a year before they came out with 21 factions, one with 99 factions would take about 5 times as long, so 5 years. Sometimes restrictions are a good thing.

**Pnutmaster** · August 28, 2006, 06:09 PM

I can see someone demanding that this discussion move to pms :p

I wasn't suggesting that a mod team would make use of every faction slot. By modding a game with 99 available faction slots, you can include the 23 factions you had originally envisioned, and not limit yourself by only including 21. Sure, things take time, but I don't see how a game with if anything, more lenient hard coded limits could in any way hinder a mature, intelligent mod team.

I feel the need to bring this up because according to what i've read, MTW II will be bound by the same numerical limits that keep RTW mods in check.

**bdh** · August 28, 2006, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Lusted

Given the fact that most major mods took around a year before they came out with 21 factions, one with 99 factions would take about 5 times as long, so 5 years. Sometimes restrictions are a good thing.

As much as I would like to praise CA for their brilliant regulation of my behavior, I would much rather condemn them. Unless of course there was some other reason (engine restirctions, etc.), otherwise, I don't like being manipulated.

**Lusted** · August 28, 2006, 06:47 PM

Oh i was talking about mods and how long they would take if they used all the factions in a limit of 99, i wasn't seeking to explain CAs actions.

**DougyM** · August 28, 2006, 07:49 PM

If you look at games like hl2 or bf1942 etc....

those games never had that many limits, but 9 in 10 mods never make it to release.

Look at the TW mods and youll find a much greater % of mods making it to a public release.

Solely becuase of the limits, yes they restrict some mods (i stress SOME)... but at the end of the day they help a lot more.

**Pnutmaster** · August 28, 2006, 09:23 PM

In regards to HL2, you're absolutely right. HL2 is the graveyard of potential mods.

HL2 modders even have an updated SDK for HL2, yet their many projects are still as stagnant and non-progressive as ever. The only HL2 mod I know of and have played is The Hidden. I highly recommend it if you'd like a change of pace from traditional MP FPS, and still carry a childhood love for hide-and-go-seek

@Lusted - I was wondering why you were so opposed to the idea

**HorseArcher** · August 28, 2006, 10:08 PM

I'm not so worried about the limits, but It would be nicer to have tools. And not wait until someone figures out how to unpack files with a custom made program or to make us go through a completely bizarre and inefficient way of installing mods. It would be nice to see a dev-built modding toolkit that lets us edit the game in a more relaxed manner and make it easier to create mods even for fresh modders. That is another major reason why the mods take forever or never see the daylight. Completely unfriendly way of modding. Anyone ever tried how easy it is to make mods for ....Oblivion? operation flashpoint?..... and the list goes on.

**John I Tzimisces** · August 28, 2006, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Archer

I'm not so worried about the limits, but It would be nicer to have tools. And not wait until someone figures out how to unpack files with a custom made program or to make us go through a completely bizarre and inefficient way of installing mods. It would be nice to see a dev-built modding toolkit that lets us edit the game in a more relaxed manner and make it easier to create mods even for fresh modders. That is another major reason why the mods take forever or never see the daylight. Completely unfriendly way of modding. Anyone ever tried how easy it is to make mods for ....Oblivion? operation flashpoint?..... and the list goes on.

I agree with this fully. For ages I dreamt of making a DnD universe (Flanaess map, if you're interested...) mod (for just about any game, eesh). Earlier in the year, if you remember (??), I had pneumonia pretty bad, spent a lot of time at home. I spent 14 hours one day modding RTW. Thats how long it took me to get the basics. If I had a friendly interface, I coulda swapped models, skins, units, traits, whatever in a fraction of that time. I had to quit, maybe I'll be able to finish the mod...

**Spartan** · August 28, 2006, 10:34 PM

I can see only one perceived advantage for the hard coded restrictions placed on modders by CA and that is value added endeavors such as X-packs. CA is simply using a draconian way of "protecting" its investment. If it decided to expand the franchise with outsourced X-packs or release a few of their own, as recently demonstrated for RTW to generate collateral revenue streams, it has a built-in way to distinguish these products from the mod community.

Given that this will be the fourth title in the franchise coupled with the well established trend of the gaming industry to support modders, as well as the massive public outcry within the TW community from nearly day one if a tool kit is not provided to the mod community it will surely be proof positive that CA perceives modders from an adversarial standpoint.

I truly hope this is not the case as it has clearly been demonstrated that modding communities ARE the life blood of many titles and make all the difference in shelf life and franchise survival. So one really has to wonder about the franchise management plan in place at CA. It is also sad that CA never publicly addresses the issue.