Faith and religion, ancs and traits

[King Philip II]

I was looking for some information about faith and religion in the TA, and stumbled over this:

"J. R. R. Tolkien once described his epic masterpiece The Lord of the Rings as "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work." Yet nowhere in its pages is there any mention of religion, let alone of the Catholic Church, Christ, or even God. Tolkien’s hobbits have no religious practices or cult; of prayer, sacrifice, or corporate worship there is no sign." http://www.decentfilms.com/articles/faithandfantasy

I have never noticed that there was no mention of religion in LOTR, so I was quite surprised to read this.
A little further down in the above article: "Part of the answer is found in Tolkien’s other great chronicle of Middle-earth, The Silmarillion, which recounts the larger mythic context of Middle-earth, ..." and "Here Tolkien does name the creator-God of Middle-earth, Eru ("the One," also called Ilúvatar, "All-Father"), as well as the mighty spirit Melkor, who rebelled against Eru and went into darkness."

Does this mean that any reference to faith or mythical beliefs in the Third Age is incorrect, besides Melkor?

My reason for asking is that I'm looking for some lore justification for the Obedience (aka Piety) attribute for the good factions. The purpose is to enable Piety related traits for the good factions, but it should make some sense lore-wise.

I'm also not sure what "Obedience" actually means. If it's just an attribute name change to get rid of "Piety" it makes a lot of sense, but maybe there is a plan to use Obedience actively. It reduces corruption and increases admininstration income, so it's a very useful attribute for governors. Increasing Obedience by staying in a settlement with Hero Shrines is probably not ideal, maybe Obedience should be determined based on other factors (loyalty, command, respect or individual traits)?

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

This should get moved to Tolkien General Discussion.

[King Philip II]

This should get moved to Tolkien General Discussion.

Why? I'm not discussing Tolkien, I'm talking about a character attribute.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

But you are asking for information on the religions in Arda. Because it's for a submod doesn't make it different. Things like that have been asked in TGD before.

[Mhaedros]

I believe Obedience is like Loyalty, only with money and corruption as a focus. The more obedience, the more money the general gives to the crown.

[King Philip II]

That makes a lot of sense. Then Obedience should be related to governor skills I think.

[Ngugi]

Why? I'm not discussing Tolkien, I'm talking about a character attribute.

But you are asking for information on the religions in Arda. Because it's for a submod doesn't make it different. Things like that have been asked in TGD before.

1) Concur with Feanaro Curufinwe, as soon this technical matter is concluded;

That makes a lot of sense. Then Obedience should be related to governor skills I think.

On which this is said be folks who studied the matter;

Listen up.
General's piety:
1) Like you already guessed helps him from getting burned as a heretic from papal inquisitors.
2) A general with highest piety will always be chosen as the governor.
3) Increases income, by the administration pip, the increased income is taken from the corruption pip, if there is any.
4) Increases religious unrest, if the province has other religion other than your own.


In short piety still works as the old management skill of RTW did, you could say that piety is just a renamed management, with a new icon and a few extra effects added for M2TW.


Moreover, Lady Gwendelyn says:

Generals with high Piety, Chivalry or Dread, make better governors. If corruption is becoming a problem, move in a governor with high Piety, Chivalry or Dread.

The first and most obvious (and easy) thing to look for is piety. In M2TW, piety is the equivalent of the Acumen stat from RTW, each additionnal Piety "halo" giving a bonus to the city's global income.
(...)
EDIT : pete101 has found out that the King's piety influences the income of EVERY city/castle you own. Send him on a crusade already !
- http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...i-s-The-Prince

Note that the values, piety effect, may be changed in TATW, one has to compair M2 and TATW's descr_campaign_db.xml in the data-folder


2) There are no real known cases of true religious acts in Tolkien's mythos (see last quote if you want to skip lore details), beside these, who are one and the same really;

Therefore Yavanna set times for the flowering and the ripening of all things mat grew in Valinor; and at each first gathering of fruits Manwë made a high feast for the praising of Eru, when all the peoples of Valinor poured forth their joy in music and song upon Taniquetil.
- Silmarillion; The Darkening of Valinor

Of old the chief city and haven of Númenor was in the midst of its western coasts, and it was called Andúnië because it faced the sunset. But in the midst of the land was a mountain tall and steep, and it was named the Meneltarma, the Pillar of Heaven, and upon it was a high place that was hallowed to Eru Ilúvatar, and it was open and unroofed, and no other temple or fane was there in the land of the Númenóreans.
...
But those that lived turned the more eagerly to pleasure and revelry, desiring ever more goods and more riches; and after the days of Tar-Ancalimon the offering of the first fruits to Eru was neglected, and men went seldom any more to the Hallow upon the heights of Meneltarma in the midst of the land.
- Silmarillion: Akallabeth

and on the evil side

Already in the days of Tar-Minastir, the eleventh King of Númenor, he had fortified the land of Mordor and had built there the Tower of Barad-dûr, and thereafter he strove ever for the dominion of Middle-earth, to become a king over all kings and as a god unto Men.
(...)
But Sauron caused to be built upon the hill in the midst of the city of the Númenóreans, Armenelos the Golden, a mighty temple; and it was in the form of a circle at the base, and there the walls were fifty feet in thickness, and the width of the base was five hundred feet across the centre, and the walls rose from the ground five hundred feet, and they were crowned with a mighty dome.
...
And they sailed now with power and armoury to Middle-earth, and they came no longer as bringers of gifts, nor even as rulers, but as fierce men of war. And they hunted the men of Middle-earth and took their goods and enslaved them, and many they slew cruelly upon their altars. For they built in their fortresses temples and great tombs in those days; and men feared them, and the memory of the kindly kings of the ancient days faded from the world and was darkened by many a tale of dread.
- Silmarillion: Akallabeth

In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and aimed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire.
- Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power...
(concerning the Second Age)

Which had no purpose from Sauron's side than to have full control over Men and in the case of Númenor (where he at end dropped Morgoth and was himself named god) make the Númenóreans enemies of Erú and the Valar.
Also in turn the Númenor case is a copy of what Melkor did when Men first awoke and he corrupted them, according to HoME 10; Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth; Author's Notes on the Commentary - Note 11, when Melkor had the first Men to build a temple and worship him and at end sacrificing humans to him, creating a 'fall of Men' that made them lose their immortality, according to the wise of the house of Hador.
The story may not be true, but it is worth to keep in mind.

Tolkien adressed the matter of religion also directly;

The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' – the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology' : in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan – but this would take long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no oven 'religion',* or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in The Lord of the Rings.)
(...)

* Almost the only vestige of 'religion' is seen on II pp. 284-5 in the 'Grace before Meat'. This is indeed mainly as it were a commemoration of the Departed, and theology is reduced to 'that which is beyond Elvenhome and ever will be', sc. is beyond the mortal lands, beyond the memory of unfallen Bliss, beyond the physical world.


- Letter 211

All in all a religious system do not work, beside as a great strech, for a LotR game.

[ThaDoews]

Tolkien don't say much about religion, but what he says is that the people of Gondor, Arnor and their former island(forget their name) has somewhat adopted the elves religion that praises Illuvatar. Rohan do have another religion which i think i can remember is somewhat like the Norse gods (Odin, Thor, Frey ect.). I don't know about the dwarves nor the Dunland people.

The evil men of the east and south had their own religion and ofcourse the orcs praise Melkor...

But no actual ritual or how much they used their gods are mentioned in Silmarilion....

[Mhaedros]

The "good" people of Middle Earth would presumably know about the Valar and Ilú. The Dwarves kind of praise their maker, Aüle, whom they call something else. The "evil" men and orcs probably praise Sauron and Melkor as dark gods, but many haradrim/easterlings probably praised their own gods.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

We know that the Rohirrim know of the Valar and they call Orome Bema.

[Loki_999]

Well, in the real world (organized) religion exists because nobody can talk to god directly (ok, some people claim to have spoken to god or gods but even the religious often find those people a little too outre for their tastes, and besides, the priests don't look favourably on those who bypass the religion to speak with their god(s) directly, it cuts out the middle man - and the prophet <-- Get it? I made a joke!)

But in middle-earth, its a bit hard for an organized religion to get going with priests standing around claiming to know the will of Eru-Illuvitar or the Valar. Especially when there are still beings (Elves of course) walking around middle earth that lived in Aman and spoke with Manwe who after all has a hotline to Eru. And also Maiar (Gandalf for example) who could hobnob with the Valar directly.

[King Philip II]

Thanks for all the info Ngugi!

re 1) The impact of Piety on corruption and admin income is exactly why I wan't to enhance the traits n' triggers influencing Piety.

re 2) I agree with you that religion is not the way to go. However, some of the mythical lore could be implemented as a few ancillaries for a little immersion.

[Kiliç Alì]

I'm also not sure what "Obedience" actually means. If it's just an attribute name change to get rid of "Piety" it makes a lot of sense, but maybe there is a plan to use Obedience actively. It reduces corruption and increases admininstration income, so it's a very useful attribute for governors. Increasing Obedience by staying in a settlement with Hero Shrines is probably not ideal, maybe Obedience should be determined based on other factors (loyalty, command, respect or individual traits)?

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

If you want to know what piety\management do in-game, you want to read this (very enlighting):
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ive-piety-mode. TATW uses vanilla mode by the way, not Britannia's piety system.

[King Philip II]

If you want to know what piety\management do in-game, you want to read this (very enlighting):
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ive-piety-mode. TATW uses vanilla mode by the way, not Britannia's piety system.

Thanks. I know exactly what it does that's the reason I wan't to enhance the attribute triggers. Links to similar resources has already been posted by Ngugi.

[Thangaror]

It's true that there is not really a practiced and organized (good) religion in Middle-earth, but there are some ceremonial activities. Among these is for example the making of lembas, the "Gates of Summer" event (the day Gondolin was attacked), New Year's Day of course, and in the Shire calendar summer and winter solstice and the equinoxes were of some importance.

The only actual religious ceremonies were the festivals of Erukyermë, Erulaitalë and Eruhantalë, equivalents to New Year's Day, Midsummer and Thanksgiving, which were celebrated in Númenor.

[Araval]

I wonder why Third Age uses vanilla piety and why it has obedience instead of managment?

[Ngugi]

I wonder why Third Age uses vanilla piety and why it has obedience instead of managment?

Would assume it's because it still have, or had, some properties left from M2 directly related to the religion/"culture" aspect of it, beside the economical: the inquisitors! [insert a 'Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton' joke here]

To name it Obedience would be as good as Managment considering +Income due to -Corruption, but the current name still make sense - an obedient, loyal servant (out of fear or love) do not accept corruption towards the crown, state or high chieftain etc.
To lesser degree as it cause + or -Order due to population devotion to a leader of same/different religion/"culture" than the population, Obedience to me feels a tad more reasonable than to call it Management.
But then again the big reason ought to been the 'Servants of Sauron' who burn people publicly if they do not are loyal enough to the tyranny of Sauron. Then Obedience make perfect sense, while if called say Management would make them not 'Servants of Sauron' but 'Accountants of Sauron' ^^
But hell, why not? A corrupt bastard [a guy with low Obedience accept or at best completly miss corruption going on around him] should face some Accountants Justice.


Had the game had no inquisitors I deem it would, in such case for the better, been named Management, Ministration, Demeanor, Intendance, Regimen or so.

[King Philip II]

Originally Posted by Araval View Post
I wonder why Third Age uses vanilla piety and why it has obedience instead of managment?

By "Vanilla Piety" do you mean the standard settings for Piety? There is an option to use and alternative mode for Piety where Piety does not cause religious unrest. (<alternative_religious_unrest bool="true"/> introduced in the Britannia campaign).

TATW is not really using Piety at the moment - there are a few traits and ancillaries that impacts Piety, but it's mostly for followers of Melkor.

Would assume it's because it still have, or had, some properties left from M2 directly related to the religion/"culture" aspect of it, beside the economical: the inquisitors! [insert a 'Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton' joke here]

To name it Obedience would be as good as Managment considering +Income due to -Corruption, but the current name still make sense - an obedient, loyal servant (out of fear or love) do not accept corruption towards the crown, state or high chieftain etc.
To lesser degree as it cause + or -Order due to population devotion to a leader of same/different religion/"culture" than the population, Obedience to me feels a tad more reasonable than to call it Management.
But then again the big reason ought to been the 'Servants of Sauron' who burn people publicly if they do not are loyal enough to the tyranny of Sauron. Then Obedience make perfect sense, while if called say Management would make them not 'Servants of Sauron' but 'Accountants of Sauron' ^^
But hell, why not? A corrupt bastard [a guy with low Obedience accept or at best completly miss corruption going on around him] should face some Accountants Justice.


Had the game had no inquisitors I deem it would, in such case for the better, been named Management, Ministration, Demeanor, Intendance, Regimen or so.

Good explanation. I actually like "Obedience" as it works for all cultures. It would not make sense to rename it to "Management" since the evil factions still have the religious aspect of it.

Maybe we should move this to Mod Workshop now? j/k

[Spice Master]

This is interesting to me, because I'm actually debating with my self lately on how to treat religion (and by extension this trait) in my mod. So, piety/obedience two real effects are 1) and increase in income due to lower corruption and 2) low piety catholic characters can get zapped by agents of Sauron? This makes sense.

The general absence of information about religious practice in Middle Earth in Tolkien's work has always seemed like a glaring hole to me. I think his deep catholicism kind of tied his hands here; he couldn't portray his protagonists as outright catholics/christians explicitly without being ridiculously anachronistic (not to mention arguably blasphemous), but he couldn't portray them as practicing heathens either or to him they might not really have been "good guys" at all. So he mostly remained silent on the subject. I think it creates a real problem with suspension of disbelief though, since pretty much all known human cultures practice some kind of religion, and at the level of development of those cultures in ME they usually take it very seriously.

Basically I want to work it in, for the sake of believability/immersion, but preferably in a way that does not directly contradict the lore. So, I'm really interested in seeing what you do with this, _KP.

[King Philip II]

This is interesting to me, because I'm actually debating with my self lately on how to treat religion (and by extension this trait) in my mod. So, piety/obedience two real effects are 1) and increase in income due to lower corruption and 2) low piety catholic characters can get zapped by agents of Sauron? This makes sense.

The general absence of information about religious practice in Middle Earth in Tolkien's work has always seemed like a glaring hole to me. I think his deep catholicism kind of tied his hands here; he couldn't portray his protagonists as outright catholics/christians explicitly without being ridiculously anachronistic (not to mention arguably blasphemous), but he couldn't portray them as practicing heathens either or to him they might not really have been "good guys" at all. So he mostly remained silent on the subject. I think it creates a real problem with suspension of disbelief though, since pretty much all known human cultures practice some kind of religion, and at the level of development of those cultures in ME they usually take it very seriously.

Basically I want to work it in, for the sake of believability/immersion, but preferably in a way that does not directly contradict the lore. So, I'm really interested in seeing what you do with this, _KP.

My challenge coding and especially writing text about religious features is that i'm utterly ignorant on the subject in general.

More effects:
3) increased admin income (taken from corruption)
4) increased religous unrest from other cultures (can be avoided by using Alternative Piety mode from Brittania campaign)
5) factor deciding who the governor is

I'm probably just going to adjust a few triggers for good factions i.e. use governor related traits and attributes as well as change some of the trait descriptions. Very minor stuff actually.

In the long term I plan to base all economic traits on Piety, but that's for another day and another mod. If you decide to make something more of it, then I'm happy to help.

Edit: I also think it influences the selection of next heir, but not sure. I'm currently killing off half my familiy three in my Gondor campaign, in order to get Aragorn as new FL