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Thread: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

  1. #21
    Evan MF's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    To add something to the discussion: I believe the rather odd, or weak, unit cohesion in Shogun 2 and in NTW/ETW melee situations is due to the 1vs1 combatant interactions in the Warscape engine. Units seem to seep into each other when they charge and then the game attempts to link them up to do these elaborate but out of place melee duels. In the earlier Total Wars (Rome, Med2) there was a much crisper and robust feel to the units, and particularly on charge you could feel the impact. Only from prolonged engagement would your unit cohesion decrease into a more disorganised state, but in Shogun 2 it seems to happen immediately on the charge. I have a feeling this contributes a lot to the 'randomness' and messyness you see in Shogun 2 battles, the fact that you have much less control over the battle-line itself, or at the very least, a lot less intuitive sense of what's going on. It's not to say I'm an amateur Total War player, in fact I've gotten right up near the top of the 1vs1 and 2vs2 ladders, and had the summers been longer would have probably won the 2vs2 ladder. I also played decent amount of NTW and ETW online to competent levels, and tonnes of RTW online. The problems of S2 multiplayer and the battle engagements in general are definitely more than just an inexperienced player's perception of the game. To justify picking that Shogun 2 youtube link, I literally just took the first video I saw when I searched 'Shogun 2 Multiplayer Battle', as I know that 90% + of all Shogun 2 battles have melee engagement phases that turn out likewise, or even messier/faster, you'll find it in any Shogun 2 video, it's an intrinsic problem in the Warscape engine, accompanied by some poor parameter balancing, that I hope CA are prepared to address.

  2. #22
    emotion_name's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Well, to avoid the "upgraded units, retainers, etc" they will just add "Classic Battles" again.

    This, with the obvious unit diversity, should make MP more interesting and last longer. Its just what happens with the maps really!

    I quite liked the Avatar mode on S2TW, for awhile anyways. Classic battles was boring, a mesh up of same units differentiated to team by there colour and nothing else, at least with veteran units and retainers there was some "diversity" to a battle, albeit in a limited sense.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by emotion_name View Post
    Well, to avoid the "upgraded units, retainers, etc" they will just add "Classic Battles" again.

    Yes but at request of thousand of people on TW forum , they changed for a Final fantasy system with Shogun 2 ranked battles ,the avatar.
    Till NTW we had classical on ranked battles but on Shogun 2 and is series we lost that ,no one plays classical due they are not ranked.
    Bringing huge list of cheats and bug exploits due the upgrade unit system,pokemon retainers,general Gods and now workshop that allows people to have the tools to ruin the game by creating cheats.
    And more ,TW lost that aspect of teaching history to all of us with the game that do and Shogun 2 no one cared who were the clans,the reasons,the HB ,etc,etc.

    If we had ranked battles only wiht classical ,things would be quite diferent.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    While you make some good points expecialy the lack of tactics , just throwing the dice and the mob that results.

    But I don't want my average battle to take over 20 min.


    CnC, Starcraft all multiplayer RTS games keep the average games under 20 min. Your reference to most Starcraft matches being 20+ min is simply incorrect. Unless the players turtle up or are terrible matches rarely last over 20 min.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Well, it's quite obvious that your average skirmish should not last past 25 minutes as it is, after all, just a skirmish.

    However, we're getting 40 unit stacks now and fighting i.e. 40 vs 40 should, imho, last quite a bit longer. I'd like to see all of those 40 units in battle, without having to jump over the map like a Red Dragonfly on speed just to be able to give my units their orders before having to jump to the next without being able to actually see what's going on because all i can think of is: CLICK CLICK CLICK CLIIICK FASTAAAAAAAAAAaaargh - Game Over, you drew scissors but they had rock - more luck next time.

  6. #26
    Karlovacko's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    I found MP battles to be great in NTW. One could get long epic 2-3 hours matches, or short fast paced 15 minute battles. So, if RTW2 is anything like NTW, I will be more than happy.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Oh I see now. You blindly rush for the dojo and, coincidently, so does your oponent. I'm not saying Shogun 2 battles arent fast paced, I'm saying the players dont help it. I have had plenty of quick battles, but for each one of those I also fought a long one. Most of my fights last 10-20 minutes, just because I always have a plan for the map.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    No my point was that the dojo's make it so the more powerful army becomes even more overpowered. And to the rest of you who responded to my post NO I do not you use the freaking dojos. I hate them, I ignore them until I can't ignore them anymore. Which usually happens when the other player starts taking them, because I know from experience if you get all the dojos you can wash over the other army easily.
    HA No I didn't have to change my strategy. My strategy for Shogun in the beginning was heavily archer based, until i got to MP and realized that no matter how much tweaking to it I did an archer based strategy does not work. I don't know how you guys can have such long matches the longest for me (if we are talking about the 1v1 ranked matches here, if we aren't whats the point) can't be more than 15 minutes. Usually being around half of that, unless each player does nothing or in a siege and the opponent wants to you use those lame daiyku samurai or something.

  9. #29
    |Sith|Galvanized Iron's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Yes Shogun 2 had many similiarities to pinball.
    Also responsible for the Roma Surrectum II Multiplayer mode
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  10. #30

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Guys those dojo things in STwII are totally optional , so when a feature is toggable I do not see whybcomplain about .... Just leave them in and not use if you do not like....
    The arcade gameplay is not on that , but on the fery same form of howthe battles are handled, the usual,blob of men clashing against another blob and finish in3 seconds fight .

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  11. #31

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS ts View Post
    Guys those dojo things in STwII are totally optional , so when a feature is toggable I do not see whybcomplain about ....
    They are optional only on no-ranked battles = BL BattleList on ranked battles = matchmades they are not optional they are always there .
    Super powerful temples that give extra skills to units on a battlefield for me makes the game less realistic therefore more arcade ,in my opinion .

  12. #32

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    I didnt remember that in ranked battles those aren't toggable ... they woudl just solve that by making them also toggable for those ind of battles ... I am more worried though by the other arcade behaviours rathern than those capture the flag points .

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  13. #33

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS ts View Post
    I didnt remember that in ranked battles those aren't toggable ... they woudl just solve that by making them also toggable for those ind of battles ... I am more worried though by the other arcade behaviours rathern than those capture the flag points .
    Yes i agree ,there are other aspects that are more important than the battlefield magic temples.
    Whats toggable bud ?

  14. #34
    emotion_name's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    "Toggable" - refers to being able to "toggle" something i.e on or off.

    I remember in RTW there was an option for arcade battles, not sure i ever used it, but does anyone know what it did? Maybe something like that, a choice between arcade or realistic battles.

    A 40 v 40 battle should last longer, a lot longer, than what 20v20 unit battles lasted and maybe there is the solution, if you want a normal s2tw style quick match then play with 20v20 units, if you want to really enjoy the intricacies of deployment and countering your enemy you go for 40v40 battles.

    Anyway, the one thing i think will have the biggest effect on battle length, which no-one has mentioned yet, is the line of sight and lack of mini map now. Just these 2 features in MP will make battles last longer, in theory anyway. How are you going to rush when you dont know where your enemy is? If you locate some units, how do you know its his whole force and he doesnt have cavalry hidden to flank you once you commit? The whole "cat and mouse" game of wanting to find your enemy and not over commit will ensure most battles last longer, and the deployment phase will be more drawn out as formations change in light of enemy units discovered, there location/type etc.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by emotion_name View Post
    "Toggable" - refers to being able to "toggle" something i.e on or off.
    Thanks emotion.

  16. #36
    High Fist's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by emotion_name View Post
    "Toggable" - refers to being able to "toggle" something i.e on or off.

    I remember in RTW there was an option for arcade battles, not sure i ever used it, but does anyone know what it did? Maybe something like that, a choice between arcade or realistic battles.

    A 40 v 40 battle should last longer, a lot longer, than what 20v20 unit battles lasted and maybe there is the solution, if you want a normal s2tw style quick match then play with 20v20 units, if you want to really enjoy the intricacies of deployment and countering your enemy you go for 40v40 battles.

    Anyway, the one thing i think will have the biggest effect on battle length, which no-one has mentioned yet, is the line of sight and lack of mini map now. Just these 2 features in MP will make battles last longer, in theory anyway. How are you going to rush when you dont know where your enemy is? If you locate some units, how do you know its his whole force and he doesnt have cavalry hidden to flank you once you commit? The whole "cat and mouse" game of wanting to find your enemy and not over commit will ensure most battles last longer, and the deployment phase will be more drawn out as formations change in light of enemy units discovered, there location/type etc.
    Arcade mode isn't very good, it basically skips deployment, gets rid of stamina and also guard mode.

    I believe your right, if fighting against the Suebi in a forest map I'd be terrified of enemies hidden everywhere. That would make themaneuvering take forever but once the battle begins I don't want it to end quickly. Especially with 40 unit armies. **** is gonna be epic.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by High Fist View Post
    Arcade mode isn't very good, it basically skips deployment, gets rid of stamina and also guard mode.

    I believe your right, if fighting against the Suebi in a forest map I'd be terrified of enemies hidden everywhere. That would make themaneuvering take forever but once the battle begins I don't want it to end quickly. Especially with 40 unit armies. **** is gonna be epic.
    40 units in an single army? where was that said?

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  18. #38

    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS ts View Post
    40 units in an single army? where was that said?
    I read people saying that also but i never saw nobody from CA saying on magazines,forums,etc ...

  19. #39
    High Fist's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Time to rethink 'Arcadey' Multiplayer

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS ts View Post
    40 units in an single army? where was that said?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m4I...iznWQ&index=11

    Skip to 02:08

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