Shield wall

[Lokaar]

Hi all,
I just got BI today and was having a little play with the shield wall formation (as romans), and was rather impressed - it looked to me how I always thought of the romans fighting. As a result, I have a few questions:

1) Is it realistic for the Romans to use it? Does this apply to early-republic (hastati etc) as well as post reform? And how about the Itallian AoR units?
2) Is there a mod that will add shield wall to the appropriate units (of all factions)?
3) When the enemy is closing with you and you are in shield wall, should you charge them or recieve the charge? Obviously getting a voley off first before charging.
4) How deep should formations be (in shield wall and in general)? Both in game terms and realism terms. Has anyone got any links to stuff about historical legion formations and tactics?

Thanks in advance for any answers.

[florin80]

2. I think RTR AE has them included and maybe Candelarius` Extended Realism Mod, but I`m not sure. Other then this you`ll probably have to mod the game yourself. Not really difficult, but it requires some basic knowledge. Links to the mods above:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56448
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55919
4. About the roman tactics see this link:
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/tactics.html

[JoeyJubb]

In response to 1)

Though I'm not sure about Romans using it, I know it does make a good replacement for the greek phalanx's because with it they'll try to push through the enemy formation much like the non-macedonian phalanx's did.

In response to 3)

When you're in a shield wall you should normally brace for a charge. If you counter charge you risk losing formation and you won't get the charge bonus because units in a shield wall can't run.

[Flogger]

units in a shield wall can't run.

Yes they can...

[JoeyJubb]

Yes they can...

What I meant is they can't run and keep formation, espicially over a short distance as would be required by a counter charge. In any case, the point still stands about the unit breaking formation, therefore suffering more loses that if the unit was stationary and braced for the attack.

[AmbrosiusAurelianus]

What I meant is they can't run and keep formation, espicially over a short distance as would be required by a counter charge. In any case, the point still stands about the unit breaking formation, therefore suffering more loses that if the unit was stationary and braced for the attack.

hhhmmm I think what is true of the game and what is true of history might be slightly different here. Historically, shield walls could charge and stay in formation. The Vikings used a boar's snout formation to attack other shield walls, and the Roman infantry at the Battle of Watling Street pushed forward in a wedge formation against the advance of the Britons, after firing javelins, much as Lokaar suggested doing in his original post (point 3).

The RTW *engine* itself can do a charging shield wall, because the Boar's Snout formation was used in a Time Commanders episode (I think it was the Stamford Bridge one), but whether this can be implemented in the actual game I don't know. You could try giving infantry a wedge formation and experimenting to see how it works; I don't know of anyone doing it before though.

I think there might be merits to both receiving a charge in a static shield wall, as Joey Jubb suggests, or to counter-charging. I'd imagine it would depend on the situation. If the unit in question was holding its place in a line, I think I'd keep it static to avoid opening a hole in the line. If the unit was not part of a line, I think I'd counter-charge.

[Lokaar]

Thanks for the replys guys. I was planning on using Candelarius' mod when it comes out, so i'll probably just go with whats in that. That roman empire link looks rather good - loads of stuff to read there, thanks.

[The Walrus]

The RTW *engine* itself can do a charging shield wall, because the Boar's Snout formation was used in a Time Commanders episode (I think it was the Stamford Bridge one), but whether this can be implemented in the actual game I don't know. You could try giving infantry a wedge formation and experimenting to see how it works; I don't know of anyone doing it before though.

I'm might try that tomorrow. If I do and it works I'll place my results in this thread. SORRY can't working on a mod.(coughlookinsigcough)

[AngryTitusPullo]

In my own game, I only uses shield wall for the romans only when besieged especially when the attacking AI is a phalanx faction. I do not sure about historical reality but as in real life in a tight spot stret fighting a gruoup of soldier will stick as close together as possible (not effective in this moders ages of guns and bombs though ) especially when those attacking have long pointed stick coming at you.. :tooth:

Inb my own mod, for the name legions I interchanges each legions between the ability to use shield wall or testudo, since one can;t have both (game engine limitations)

[MrT785479]

Well, I know that infantry cannot use the wedge formation. Someone found a way "around" this problem by making infantry with a one pixel sized mount, but the movement didn't work right at all. Also, even if you could give the wedge to infantry, it wouldn't do much good because the wedge really sucks in this game, and is just for show.

[AmbrosiusAurelianus]

Inb my own mod, for the name legions I interchanges each legions between the ability to use shield wall or testudo, since one can;t have both (game engine limitations)

That's a good idea, AngryTitusPullo! You could always give a unit an SPQR style shield wall modded for the loose formation button, as well. That would leave the formation button free for a testudo, schiltrom or whatever.

@ The Walrus - It is indeed a shame that we cannot have mutliple abilities. Thanks for trying the wedge thing out though!

[The Walrus]

Yeah but the Roman infantry did use the wedge formation in real life.
I wish we could have multible abilities. PS Can you give flaming arrows to velites?

[MrT785479]

Well, since the game recognizes arrows as different from Javelines, I'm thinking no.

[The Walrus]

Dang. I still might try. Depends...busy working