Archers too strong, again

[Påsan]

Its a balancing issue. A beta issue.

The Teutenberg was pre-alpha.

The only slightly worrisome thing I saw regarding the german archers were the volley firing like they were the Prussian guard infantry. Really, how common was volley firing at all during these times? I fail to see the use of it. I doubt the barbarians used it, I doubt the Greeks used it, and I doubt the Romans used it. Perhaps the Persians or something of that sort.

[Kenios]

Its a balancing issue. A beta issue. The Teutenberg was pre-alpha. The only slightly worrisome thing I saw regarding the german archers were the volley firing like they were the Prussian guard infantry. Really, how common was volley firing at all during these times? I fail to see the use of it. I doubt the barbarians used it, I doubt the Greeks used it, and I doubt the Romans used it. Perhaps the Persians or something of that sort.

I see no balancing problem. If I'm willing to commit 6 units, which is over 1/4 of an entire stack, to shoot 1 unit from the sides and back, I expect that 1 unit to be completely decimated with a few volleys. If not, what good are archers? How many archer units am I then supposed to have to take down 1 unit from the sides and back? 10 maybe? Might as well throw down the bow and replace them all with infantry.

[CnConrad]

I've just watched new TW Teutobrg forest video ...
and I think arhcers are way overpowerd, unless those in video are some omg barbarian elite,what I highly doubt. Just look at 9:10 volleys they are killing Romans with 60 armour (green bar is full , so I guess that's the best infantry armor in game) like they are unarmored. Archers were too strong back in S2TW, however that was kind of understandable,but not acceptable, because samurais didn't equip shields ,but here in R2TW they should certainly be nerfed.
What do you think community?

So, you want them to be completely useless? In shogun 2 archers always lost 1v1 against any unit in the game when you consider cost vs cost, they were support only units. Now, you want them to not even be able to do that?


Why even have them in the game if they are going to be useless?


Edit:

Just wanted to add, this is one of those times that gameplay > realism.

What you are asking for is that archers become a useless unit. I know what you are going to say, "I don't want them to be useless but they should not be able to effectively kill armored foot soldiers." Who exactly should they kill?

They cost money and unit slots. If you cant get that cost and unit slot worth of damage out of them they are useless. IE if your opponant has 10,000 gp worth of legionaries and you have 8,000 gp worth of legionaries and 2,000 gp worth of archers, you should either win because you have mixed units or at the very least be tied in strength.


By the way, archers were not overpowered in shogun 2. Examples as shown assuming we are close to the same skill level.

If you have an army of 20 samurai archers vs my 20 katana samurai I will win.
If you have an army of 10 samurai archers and 10 katana samurai vs my 20 katana I will win.
If you have an army of 5 samurai archers and 15 katana samurai vs my 20 katana you will probably win.

How are they overpowered? They need to inflect alot of damage in 4-5 shots because that's usually all they will get before a good player will get into melee with them and destroy the whole unit.

[Murfmurf]

I'm more concerned with how prevalent archers are going to be in the game. From what I understand they weren't even used that much in the West at this time, and other projectiles, particularly javelins, were much more common.

The East is another matter though.

[hospitaller13]

Wow this thread is disgusting. Archers should be an effective weapon on the battlefield, a volley of a few hundred arrows would tear a unit to pieces, thus why the Romans were annihilated by the parthians. Why do you think soilders in heavy armour would use tusteudo tactics. Im so sick of seeing hundreds of arrows drop a couple of men. Obviously this will be ridiculously exploited in multiplayer and will be nerfed in later patches just like shogun. I hate how they did that for the sake of a few morons who use the most filthy and cheap tactics in muliplayer. If they want to improve the online experience they stop sacrificing realism for gameplay, And the best way to do this would be to remove stupid "win" "hero" units instead of messing up the stats.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

Wow this thread is disgusting. Archers should be an effective weapon on the battlefield, a volley of a few hundred arrows would tear a unit to pieces, thus why the Romans were annihilated by the parthians. Why do you think soilders in heavy armour would use tusteudo tactics. Im so sick of seeing hundreds of arrows drop a couple of men. Obviously this will be ridiculously exploited in multiplayer and will be nerfed in later patches just like shogun. I hate how they did that for the sake of a few morons who use the most filthy and cheap tactics in muliplayer. If they want to improve the online experience they stop sacrificing realism for gameplay, And the best way to do this would be to remove stupid "win" "hero" units instead of messing up the stats.

Parthian Arrows and Bows are something entirely diffrent than western Bows. The Bow was never much more than a hunting weapon in western europe, for the "barbarians" and romans/greeks as well. It was a better hunting weapons and was used in some skirmishes, while it was a main weapon in the east and the Parthians had even for the eastern category of warfare stronger arrows and high quality bow in comparing with other eastern people.

Still if a mass of archers is used like in the Preview it would have an devastating effect. I also want to remember that Jack said that the stats of several units are increased (Roman Melee) and or made lower (Barbarian Melee).

[Påsan]

Parthian Arrows and Bows are something entirely diffrent than western Bows. The Bow was never much more than a hunting weapon in western europe, for the "barbarians" and romans/greeks as well. It was a better hunting weapons and was used in some skirmishes, while it was a main weapon in the east and the Parthians had even for the eastern category of warfare stronger arrows and high quality bow in comparing with other eastern people.

Still if a mass of archers is used like in the Preview it would have an devastating effect. I also want to remember that Jack said that the stats of several units are increased (Roman Melee) and or made lower (Barbarian Melee).

Yeah and the Phartians had an indefiante supply of arrows and the legionaries were just sitting there.

[hospitaller13]

True and I know bows weren't a big deal in Europe at the time, but I would just like to see general missile weapons have a importance in battles.

[MathiasOfAthens]

At a certain range arrows will kill on impact and punch through shields. At another range they will bounce off shields. And at another range they will bounce off armour. Only way you can say arrows are too strong is if at long range arrows punch through armour and kill. And not just 1 or 2 kills I mean a lot of deaths.

I am hoping archers will be strong enough to force players to use other means to eliminate the archers before charging in with infantry. Cavalry would be necessary.

[frontier-auxilia]

Well per alpha guys chill. IMO archers should be good against lightly armored and mediocre troops but not as effective against heavily armored units the way slingers and javelins are. Having archers who can simply mow down anything is no fun at all as well as earlier versions of third age total war shown me. In this time frame archers should be support units. Even the Mongols who were famous for their competently with their composite bow need to win most of their battles in close quarters.

[Petrucci]

What's wrong with most of you? I'm not saying arhcers should be usless,but they should not be strong like S2TW bow ashigaru killing 10 samurai in first volley. And barbarians from the west should have overall the weakest archers in game. Moving east we should face stronger ones.

[An Uncommon Flatulence]

What's wrong with most of you? I'm not saying arhcers should be usless,but they should not be strong like S2TW bow ashigaru killing 10 samurai in first volley. And barbarians from the west should have overall the weakest archers in game. Moving east we should face stronger ones.

Killing 10 per volley is probably the bare minimum for them being worth a damn. Watch some shogun multiplayer matches on youtube. Archers rarely have a great presence compared to old RTW and MTW2 where people rolled with 6 units, and many do without archers altogether. Mobility and shock are too important and every archer you have is one less unit to hold the line and or flank. If the Romans are as fast as moving around and changing into special formations as they are in the demo it will be even more true here.

[jakeswe]

Killing 10 per volley is probably the bare minimum for them being worth a damn. Watch some shogun multiplayer matches on youtube. Archers rarely have a great presence compared to old RTW and MTW2 where people rolled with 6 units, and many do without archers altogether. Mobility and shock are too important and every archer you have is one less unit to hold the line and or flank. If the Romans are as fast as moving around and changing into special formations as they are in the demo it will be even more true here.

That's because units move insanely fast in Shogun 2. Slower movement speed gives archers more of an advantage.

[An Uncommon Flatulence]

That's because units move insanely fast in Shogun 2. Slower movement speed gives archers more of an advantage.

I doubt they will move to a slow speed. All the total wars are moving towards a multiplayer stance and people don't want to get up into huge slogs. Aside from that another problem is that total war despite having all these graphical advancements still has a simplified damage model where characters have no ablative qualities. They are either alive or dead with no inbetween states like wounded. So anything that isn't pulling it's weight in bodies isn't worth building. Archers fall into a role where they have to be major damage dealers since they are so squishy in melee. It's pretty much a classic balance paradigm.

[CnConrad]

What's wrong with most of you? I'm not saying arhcers should be usless,but they should not be strong like S2TW bow ashigaru killing 10 samurai in first volley. And barbarians from the west should have overall the weakest archers in game. Moving east we should face stronger ones.

No you are asking for archers to be useless, like I said they cost money and slots. If they are as ineffective as you are suggesting noone has any reason to build any. They only get 2-3 shots max at an advancing unit untill they get into a melee.

If you cant even kill 20-30 men with your entire unit of archers before they get crushed in a melee, why would anyone field any archers?

Dont say you want them to be effective against light armor only because why would anyone field light armor if they are weak against everything.

[Petrucci]

West barbarian archers, unless this one were elites( In that case I have no complains) should be the weakest archers in game. If they are so strong, please think what would Parthian eltite archers be capable of doing.
Now you will probably say this is pre-alpha,that game was scirpited etc, but although this is true, I'm entreating CA to make low tier archers less leathal then they were in S2TW.

[dking2]

What do we currently know about archer mechanics? Is CA keeping the S2 range indicator arcs, and is it known whether elevated terrain will effect range?

[Yayattasa]

What do we currently know about archer mechanics? Is CA keeping the S2 range indicator arcs, and is it known whether elevated terrain will effect range?

Elevated terrain will not give more range. Instead, it will increase the damage of the arrows (I know, it sucks!).

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Also, stop claiming it's pre-alpha when we all know it's not! The game is to be released in 3 months!!!

[The Black Ghost]

I agree they are a little too accurate.

My main problem is with the visuals though--the weird arrow trails. it looks horrible--but I'm not going to get back into that now. They will still be doing tweaks.

[Kinjo]

I think it's impossible to tell if they are too acruate from the limted scripted footage that has been revealed and yes the turd beams look retarded.