Need advice: Isengard vs. Elves

[Finkeren]

As a relative newcomer to TATW and MOS I'm trying out the different factions in short campaigns on H/M.

Now the turn has come to Isengard, which I'm really looking forward to both because of the fantastic design lifted from Jacksons movies but also because of the unique challence in the weak starting position and the posibility to challenge Mordor itself.

So far I'm doing fairly well against Rohan, their Reals cut in two by turn 6 and now in full retreat. Thus I'm beginning to prepare my next step. I don't really wanna tackle Gondor right away (we are currently at peace, and they're pressed enough by Mordor to be contained for now), Dunland is standing in my way to attack Eriador, so I've decided to take out Lorien.

Which brings me to my problem: I've tried out Isengard against the different Elven factions in custom battle, and I have a really hard time taking them on. In my earlier campaigns as OotMM and Mordor, I postponed any major confrontation with elves untill I had trolls, but this obviously isn't a posibility here.

What can I do in field battles against elves to avoid running my army tired and watch my heavy infantry get broken by small groups of light infantry and archers, as happened in custom battle?

I have some hope, that once I get Uruk-Hai crossbow infantry, they will be able to give me some good ranged flanking capabilities, but other than that, I don't see how I'm going to defeat any Elven faction in a pitched battle.

Suggestions?

[Mank]

I have rarely played with Isengard myself but I saw no mention of wargs in your post so I'd recommend really trying to leverage more cavalry. Just straight toe-to-toe against the elves is pretty costly, but with good warg use you'll be able to take the edge off.

[Finkeren]

I just find that wargs are incredibly vulnerable to archers and with the extreme range of elven archers, it's going to be hard just keeping them alive.

Playing as Silvan Elves I've been able to stop charging warg units of 100+ dead in their tracks and kill 2/3 of them within seconds with just 1 or 2 archer units.

Even if I use expendable snaga as meat shields to get close enough to the archers, I can't seem to tie the elves down well enough. Some are always getting out and that's enough to make my wargs history. In those situations I feel forced to charge the wargs directly into the archers, but they never do that well when bogged down in melee, even against archers on their own.

Wargs simply are too weak for the task, or I'm using them wrong.

[Flinn]

fight in chokepoints and cities, where numbers can make the difference over the quality. If you want to be aggressive camp one army of yours in their land on an ideal position and let them attack you. It is not always possible or not always working, but this is IMO the only chance you can have with orcish factions to reduce to the minimum the big gap in quality with the elves

for sure there might be other chances, but in main battles (1vs1 with full stacks) you'll always be in big disavantages with them on the battlefield (not exactly the same if autoresolving), so the best technique at all is to prevent them to build up a full stack, basically by focusing on them exclusively and chasing down all the 1-2 units armies they send around on the map. Isengard is a powerful faction (uruks are not bad at all, with morale and stamina) but will never be able to stand elves 1vs1, so in order to be succesful against them you'll need "many" 1/2 stack armies to prevent them to group up, more than "few" full stack armies to confront them in "epic battles"

not very fair, but orcs aren't

F

[Wolfeson]

fight in chokepoints and cities, where numbers can make the difference over the quality.

Fighting in confined spaces is the absolute last thing you want to do when trying to win with quantity over quality (Thermopylae, anyone?). The only way fighting in cities would work to Isengard's advantage is that archers are less effective if you can draw them into the city, rather than just letting your troops get picked off on the outer walls. Cities can also give you a better chance to force their archers into melee, but their infantry (and even many of their higher-tier archers) will massacre your uruks if you can't hit them from multiple sides. You definitely do not want to attack elven towns to force the combat into the streets, since their archers will decimate you from the walls; starve them out and then charge them before they can form up outside. Avoid battles at any other types of chokepoints, like river crossings, AT ALL COSTS. Their archers can hit you from across the river, their infantry will carve you up in the confined space of a bridge or a ford, and you have no way to flank them.

Ultimately, your goal with Isengard against the elves is simply to swarm them. The key is forcing their archers to fight in melee rather than kiting your uruks forever, and the only real way to do that is to harass them with wargs and accept the losses until your infantry can catch up (try to circle behind the elven archers so their skirmish mode retreats take them back toward your infantry). Isengard isn't really that far from Lorien, especially for a cavalry unit, so you should be able to maintain a steady flow of warg reinforcements. Bersekers are essentially your mini-troll unit and can break through elven infantry, but make sure you have snaga or something else to soak archer fire, because berserkers have lousy armor.

At the strategic level, I definitely agree with swarming all the small stacks to prevent them from fielding a big stack (solid advice regardless of faction).

[Goth]

I edited export_descr_unit and have given many units of different factions the shield wall ability and one of the units I gave this ability to is Uruk hai heavy infantry, using shieldwall formation they are a good match for most units in the game except the really elite units. yeah I know I cheat lol
Goth

[Wizad]

On the battle map:
Have a high dread general.
Use only a couple of Wargs (1-2 per stack).
The bulk of your army should consist of max upgraded Uruk Hai Infantry.
A couple of Uruk Hai Crossbows and a Ballista so you can return fire.

Put your ranged units in loose formation (Crossbows have loose formation, right?) and let them exchange a volley with the enemy. All the while you should be advancing with your Uruk Hai Infantry.
When everyone is fighting, use your Wargs as the hammer to strike the Elven Infantry from behind.

On the strategic map:
You haven't really hurt Rohan until you've captured Helmsdeep. As soon as you capture Helm's Deep, rally your forces and aim for Edoras. Even after capturing those 2 regions, there are still plenty of rich cities to conquer from Rohan.
Retrain all of your forces in Isengard. Make sure you have the highest level blacksmith in Isengard.


If you follow those tips, it is still possible that you lose battles. However, you are able to get more units by continually producing from Helm's Deep and Isengard. That is how you win the war against the Elves. Also a lot of your troops are going to be at least at the silver experience level.

[Finkeren]

On the strategic map:
You haven't really hurt Rohan until you've captured Helmsdeep. As soon as you capture Helm's Deep, rally your forces and aim for Edoras. Even after capturing those 2 regions, there are still plenty of rich cities to conquer from Rohan.
Retrain all of your forces in Isengard. Make sure you have the highest level blacksmith in Isengard.

As I said in my first post, I captured Helms Deep on turn 6, effectively splitting Rohan in two. Edoras fell on turn 10 I think. Maybe it was luck, but Rohan prefered to have all their forces out in the field leaving their major settlements nearly unprotected (I don't play with the garrison script, as I find it too arbitrary).

[Wizad]

As I said in my first post, I captured Helms Deep on turn 6, effectively splitting Rohan in two. Edoras fell on turn 10 I think. Maybe it was luck, but Rohan prefered to have all their forces out in the field leaving their major settlements nearly unprotected (I don't play with the garrison script, as I find it too arbitrary).

Honestly I would restart the campaign if I were you. The garrison script makes the game more challenging to play. It also makes sure you can fight epic battles at the custom settlements.

But of course that is up to you.

[eugenioso]

the whole point of fighting elves as Isengard is to get lots and lots of infantry. uruk raiders, infantry and a few guards of isengard, along with maybe two crossbowmen/bowmen (boworcs?). fighting the elves is all truly about attrition; your heaviest infantry engage the elven infantry, which will suffer significantly, while your archers fire against anyone and your lighter infantry chase all around the map the enemy archers.

this is a very unefficient way of making war as you can imagine, but also a necessary one. ballista crews make nice pincushions to elven archers, as do the inaccurate catapults. wargs should be acquired but unfortunately they are almost impossible to retrain far away into the campaign, so theyre only good for chasing down already fleeing units. but the real advantage is that if an uruk or orc can kill 1 elf and then die, its still an infinitely better deal than the elves get. attrition them.

[Finkeren]

OK, it seems like you guys have a bit more faith in the power of Isengards units than I do. I might just have to refine my play style. I'll take on Lorien once I finish cleaning up the last remains of Rohan and have had the barracks event. I guess Lorien is going to take my full commitment, best not to have other wars going on simultaneously.

[LuckyPistol]

Hahaha you think Lorien is giving you trouble? Try Vanilla TATW and go against the High Elves

But Wizad is right on the dot, you will need a high dread general to move in and route enemy troops for your wargs to sweep up. Your best shot at killing elven units quickly are crossbows and ballistas, though I heavily prefer the former. Since Lorien has basically has one unit type of cavalry you shouldn't worry about cavalry charges smashing up your crossbows

Conserve your wargs and do NOT use them to charge the enemy, Isengard wargs don't have AP, so just try to route as best you can and use the beasties to sweep them up. Its really your only shot against the elves.

eugenioso, I have to disagree with your strategy. I myself used to use that playstyle, but i realized it wont generate the best results. Plus it makes battles a pain to go through.

[Finkeren]

Hahaha you think Lorien is giving you trouble? Try Vanilla TATW and go against the High Elves

In custom battle I've trained with Isengard against all elven factions. In MOS I found the Silvan Elves to be the worst. They have the best and most versatile archers and run around like crazy tiring my troops. High Elves are a pain also, but even if their units are stronger they seem more focused on melee which kinda makes them more managable, plus their generals are heavy cav, who will die hideously on my pikes.

Conserve your wargs and do NOT use them to charge the enemy, Isengard wargs don't have AP, so just try to route as best you can and use the beasties to sweep them up. Its really your only shot against the elves.

I'm quite aware of just how weak wargs are. There are only 2 instances, where I charge with them: To rout wavering foes already engaged in combat or to prevent archers from shooting, if there's an emergency and my wargs stand to be shot to pieces anyway.

[CatoTheYounger]

In custom battle I've trained with Isengard against all elven factions. In MOS I found the Silvan Elves to be the worst. They have the best and most versatile archers and run around like crazy tiring my troops. High Elves are a pain also, but even if their units are stronger they seem more focused on melee which kinda makes them more managable, plus their generals are heavy cav, who will die hideously on my pikes.


I'm quite aware of just how weak wargs are. There are only 2 instances, where I charge with them: To rout wavering foes already engaged in combat or to prevent archers from shooting, if there's an emergency and my wargs stand to be shot to pieces anyway.

No garrison script? good lord so what is the proiblem? did you enjoy taking the virtualy undefended Helms deep? The major cities and fortresses would all be defended so without a garrison script what need of you for strategy?

So THATS why you took Helms Deep and Edoras by turn 10. And you still need advice? Turn the Garrison script on and challenge yourself son. Helms Deep and Edoras should not be cake walks. No Garrison scipt no challenge. ZERO.

[Finkeren]

No garrison script? good lord so what is the proiblem? did you enjoy taking the virtualy undefended Helms deep? The major cities and fortresses would all be defended so without a garrison script what need of you for strategy?

So THATS why you took Helms Deep and Edoras by turn 10. And you still need advice? Turn the Garrison script on and challenge yourself son. Helms Deep and Edoras should not be cake walks. No Garrison scipt no challenge. ZERO.

Jeez man, no need to get all pissy about it. If you read my first post you'd know, that I'm not asking for help with strategy at all. My question was purely about tactics and how to defeat elves in a field battle with Isengard, that's it. As explained above, my reason for turning the garrison script off has nothing to do with difficulty. That being said, I do not play TW games to "challenge" myself but to relax and pass time once in a while. I don't want a cake walk (and TATW with MOS is certainly no cake walk for me - with or without the garrison script) but neither do I want to tear my hair out in frustration or spend hundreds upon hundreds of turns for each campaign. That's just not my style of play.

[CatoTheYounger]

Jeez man, no need to get all pissy about it. If you read my first post you'd know, that I'm not asking for help with strategy at all. My question was purely about tactics and how to defeat elves in a field battle with Isengard, that's it. As explained above, my reason for turning the garrison script off has nothing to do with difficulty. That being said, I do not play TW games to "challenge" myself but to relax and pass time once in a while. I don't want a cake walk (and TATW with MOS is certainly no cake walk for me - with or without the garrison script) but neither do I want to tear my hair out in frustration or spend hundreds upon hundreds of turns for each campaign. That's just not my style of play.

Sorry bout that man but im shocked people play without the script anymore. You might be new to this mod but new to Total War? The AI will always have their men in the field and there will be no chalenge as even the capital will be undefended usualy. It's not random how the script is used. Certain important settlements would not and should not be left virtualy empty so the garrison script fixes that.

You will find after 30 turns you took tons of cities with no challenge. Id just start over. Their is a reason that all their forces are wandering in the filed while Edoras and Helms Deep burn withing 10 turns. Enjoy the mod and turn the scipt on. You'll thank me later.

Just sayin!

[CatoTheYounger]

Jeez man, no need to get all pissy about it. If you read my first post you'd know, that I'm not asking for help with strategy at all. My question was purely about tactics and how to defeat elves in a field battle with Isengard, that's it. As explained above, my reason for turning the garrison script off has nothing to do with difficulty. That being said, I do not play TW games to "challenge" myself but to relax and pass time once in a while. I don't want a cake walk (and TATW with MOS is certainly no cake walk for me - with or without the garrison script) but neither do I want to tear my hair out in frustration or spend hundreds upon hundreds of turns for each campaign. That's just not my style of play.

Hey man sorry but i didn't know anybody played without garrison script anymore. You might be new to this mod but new to Total War? You said yourself Rohan preferred to have their men wandering in the field instead of defending Helms deep or Edoras and they were virtualy undefended. And you took them by turn 10 because of it. Also its not random that certain cities are defended with Garrison script. Important cities and capitals are Garrisoned as no nation wouyd leave them empty especialy with enemies right across from them. Cities that they take over that were not originaly theirs wont be part of the script.

Consider my advice and turn the script on or by turn 30 youll have tons of cities conquered without a fight and want to start over. You'll thank me later

Just sayin!

[Jmonstra]

Wargs are glorious in large quantities . If you have enough of them to break of a low-mass units formation then they can deal pretty high casualties even to Elves. Course, thats my experience fighting against Isengard.

[LuckyPistol]

I don't think someone should be put down for turning off the Garrison Script, sometimes its a pain to lose the advantage of discovering an unprotected settlement

To say that the Elves pose no challenge because the Garrison script is off is ridiculous, the only instance when elves are not a challenge is when you are PLAYING as elves hahaha

[Loki_999]

Not everyone has the same skill. If someone is having problems without the garrison script, the last thing that is needed for them to make the game harder.

When they get the skill to handle the game, then they can start a new game with the harder settings if they want.