Christian Schools vs Public Schools

[4p3x]

Hello Everyone. I would like to start a debate on Christian Schools vs. Public Schools. One doesn’t easily find Christian School Criticisms on the net. It would be interesting to see theist responses to those criticisms as well.

I look forward to seeing where this debate will go. After seeing the expertise from members in other posts, TWC has to be one of the better places for this debate.

Starting off I will say that Christian schools education is limited due the fact they ignore and omit anything that conflicts with their beliefs. It seems the students are only able to read “Christian approved” history books and the like. This would leave great thinkers like Aristotle, Descartes, and Machiavelli out of their schools. Let’s not forget certain art and music will be left out as well. Doesn’t that hurt children more than help them?

What does everyone think?

Here is some entertainment on the subject.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...92433&q=Dawkins

[Sétanta]

I beg to differ. My family goes to Catholic Schools (throughout their education: kindergarten to college), and the only real difference is that they focus on the history of Europe and have a class on Theology.

[4p3x]

I see. I was raised a Catholic, But recently (last 5 years) I began to think for myself. I started noticing the flaws in the bible and the traditional christian beliefs.

Do you believe your Catholic school will teach your children about Evolution for one? I know many Baptists that get riled up when you bring up evolution. One college (Bob Jones) here in the U.S. will not let students listen to music or go to the movie theater. They cant even appreciate and admire any art the school has'nt approved of.

Don’t you find that wrong? Limiting?

[Sétanta]

Do you believe your Catholic school will teach your children about Evolution for one? I know many Baptists that get riled up when you bring up evolution. One college (Bob Jones) here in the U.S. will not let students listen to music or go to the movie theater. They cant even appreciate and admire any art they haven’t approved of.

Yes. Genesis is taken metaphorically in the Church nowadays, as opposed to the Protestant sects that take it literally. So it probably depends on the school. My school for example teaches nothing about the evolution of humans at least, wishing to stay away from controversy, but does teach the scientific creation of Earth.

[4p3x]

I think the majority of Christians (in the U.S. at least) lack the understanding of a metaphor.

How does one compare progress between public and Christian schools? I don’t think Christian schools take the CSAP. How do you begin to compare? Sure, you can compare SAT and other similar tests, but what about grade school progress?

Some believe Christian schools are “less successful in teaching pupils tolerance and respect for other cultures and faiths”.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/fait...395883,00.html

What exactly do you mean when you say “The scientific creation of earth?”

[removeduser_487563287433]

Well big surprise there. Time wasted on teaching Christian mythology could be spent on actually educating a student.

[Katrina]

From what I have heard through my friend that goes to a public school, is that it is just the same as the regular public school she attended in earlier life, accept it has a stricter environment, had a class for bible study, and the feel and style of the school was Christian derived. She told me that they did not reject other beleifs, however they taught the them through the eyes of a Christian.

That, yes, could cause potential Christian overpower upon the students who therefore will not be able to suffice the abilty to think think for themselves, but be pushed into a Christian background, however, as my friend points out, they are introduced to the other ideas of religion and beleive, just as public schooling does on a majority basis, which allows students to realize other options. The school, teaches these to inform, however, students will be able to use their mind to decide if they beleive in the Christian church or not.

Christian schools can be a potential problem, in the area that they can be too overruling with their beleifs over the students, however, it can be a postive place for those who are serious about thier religion.

[Tom Paine]

Christian schools are a problem. Not because they don't teach evolution in many cases, or not just that. Not because "comparative religion" means, "This religion is wrong, as is this, and this, and this..." But because it is a religious school at all. This means one religion is pushed and advanced; others are excluded or made to feel worthless due to their religion. Religious dissension is punished, and this again is a problem. And of course the Christian version of subjects is pushed, and this is a detriment to the children's learning of History and similar subjects where the Christian version may well be very different from the secular version. This is based on experiences of a friend in a religious school and numerous articles about them, as they are an increasing phenomenon in the UK.

[Katrina]

Christian schools are a problem. Not because they don't teach evolution in many cases, or not just that. Not because "comparative religion" means, "This religion is wrong, as is this, and this, and this..." But because it is a religious school at all. This means one religion is pushed and advanced; others are excluded or made to feel worthless due to their religion. Religious dissension is punished, and this again is a problem. And of course the Christian version of subjects is pushed, and this is a detriment to the children's learning of History and similar subjects where the Christian version may well be very different from the secular version. This is based on experiences of a friend in a religious school and numerous articles about them, as they are an increasing phenomenon in the UK.

True, however, in this day and age, there are two types of mankind. Christian mankind, and all else. In Christian mankind, no matter how fixed the facts and information that the Christian school provides must be, it is, in the eyes of the school, the guardian, and other Christians, that it is the right thing to do, no matter how un-religious the student may be. According to the rest of the society, yes Christian schools are completely discriminational towars the equality of religious teachings throughout all subjects and matter.

However, can we not use this argument within public schooling? Does certain aspects of public schooling have fixed information and ways of teaching on different accounts? Is fact ever going to mean what it should, with the realm of religion on the majority's sleeve?

[Tom Paine]

True, however, in this day and age, there are two types of mankind. Christian mankind, and all else. In Christian mankind, no matter how fixed the facts and information that the Christian school provides must be, it is, in the eyes of the school, the guardian, and other Christians, that it is the right thing to do, no matter how un-religious the student may be. According to the rest of the society, yes Christian schools are completely discriminational towars the equality of religious teachings throughout all subjects and matter.

Um... I actually incude all other religions in my arguments; Islamic schoosl do the same for Islam. But the fact is, its not just discriminatory, its damaging; how can a child function well and succeed if what they are taught is a web of distortions and lies in science? How can they function in a multireligious society when they are told all relgions but theirs are wrong by their teachers? It may be the right thing to do, but is it the ethical thing to do?

However, can we not use this argument within public schooling? Does certain aspects of public schooling have fixed information and ways of teaching on different accounts? Is fact ever going to mean what it should, with the realm of religion on the majority's sleeve?

It does, but unlike the religious schools, it does not have an agenda. It does not push one view. Comparative religions are taught equally, for instance.

[Katrina]

Um... I actually incude all other religions in my arguments; Islamic schoosl do the same for Islam. But the fact is, its not just discriminatory, its damaging; how can a child function well and succeed if what they are taught is a web of distortions and lies in science? How can they function in a multireligious society when they are told all relgions but theirs are wrong by their teachers? It may be the right thing to do, but is it the ethical thing to do?

No, it is not the ethical thing to do, nor do I beleive it to be the right thing to do. Also, yes Islam and all othe religions tie in, it is very late and I am losing my sense. However, if the guardian of the child is religious enough to send that child to a religious school, then I do not see much hope anyways for their freedom. Never the less, Christian schools are biased and not politically correct in terms of religious equality.

It does, but unlike the religious schools, it does not have an agenda. It does not push one view. Comparative religions are taught equally, for instance.

Of course, so I must say one more time, religious equality is essential.

The thing, also, is that in a religious school, that specific religion is not just taught beyond all others, which could be less of a problem, but the religion is actually practiced. If part of the teachings of a school, are having the students perform rituals for a religion, then that is completely violating, as these children have all right to chose which religon they follow and practice.

[Tom Paine]

No, it is not the ethical thing to do, nor do I beleive it to be the right thing to do. Also, yes Islam and all othe religions tie in, it is very late and I am losing my sense. However, if the guardian of the child is religious enough to send that child to a religious school, then I do not see much hope anyways for their freedom. Never the less, Christian schools are biased and not politically correct in terms of religious equality.

So you agree that religious institutions for education have a negative effect and need to be abolished?

Of course, so I must say one more time, religious equality is essential.

The thing, also, is that in a religious school, that specific religion is not just taught beyond all others, which could be less of a problem, but the religion is actually practiced. If part of the teachings of a school, are having the students perform rituals for a religion, then that is completely violating, as these children have all right to chose which religon they follow and practice.

See above. I get the feeling we agree.

[Søren]

No, it is not the ethical thing to do, nor do I beleive it to be the right thing to do. Also, yes Islam and all othe religions tie in, it is very late and I am losing my sense. However, if the guardian of the child is religious enough to send that child to a religious school, then I do not see much hope anyways for their freedom. Never the less, Christian schools are biased and not politically correct in terms of religious equality.

Of course, so I must say one more time, religious equality is essential.

Firstly, I'm not so sure that being 'politically correct' is necessarly a virtue.

And of course they're biased - biased toward whatever set of christian ethics they believe in. Just as secular schools would be biased towards whichever ethics they propose.

By it's very nature, ethical education must be biased towards a certain set of values, and this is true for all schools, religious or no.

The thing, also, is that in a religious school, that specific religion is not just taught beyond all others, which could be less of a problem, but the religion is actually practiced. If part of the teachings of a school, are having the students perform rituals for a religion, then that is completely violating, as these children have all right to chose which religon they follow and practice.

Not really. The idea of the religious school is that students will already be following that religion. If so, they would have no problem with practicing it in the school.

Now, it may well be that some children are enrolled in said school who do not follow/believe in that religion. Sad, yes, but the problem is with those who enrolled them, not the concept of the school itself.

Yes of course. The idea of the system is negative to say the least.

Religious equality, in my oppinion should be greatly stressed, for many obvious discriminatory and enforceful reasons. I do not, however, beleive, as some people do, that religious teachings should be taken out of the public and private school curriculum. Religion, being a large and ever growing world-factor, is an idea that must be addressed and educated around to open up possibilities for personal enlightment and information on the influence that it has caused for mankind. However, it is also a topic that has to be greatly stressed over the path that teachers and schools goes about teaching the ideas. All major religions must be taught equally, straight through the general oppinon of the world and generated straight from origin, and biased in absolutely no way.

Religious equality?

Of course; but who says that religious schools need oppose that per sé. Of course, some of them promote intolerence, but that says more about the individual school than the general, and I'm sure it's true for secular schools just as much.

[ENSAIS]

Christian schools are a problem. Not because they don't teach evolution in many cases, or not just that. Not because "comparative religion" means, "This religion is wrong, as is this, and this, and this..." But because it is a religious school at all. This means one religion is pushed and advanced; others are excluded or made to feel worthless due to their religion. Religious dissension is punished, and this again is a problem. And of course the Christian version of subjects is pushed...

So let me see now. If I am a deeply religious person--and in the US that means I PAY taxes for the public school near me to spend over 12k/ year per student.
I then sacrifice to pay again about 2500/ year for my child to go to a Christian school that is staffed by volunteers and teachers who make less than at that public school, and the facilities at my child's school do not compare with the lavish facilites at the local school (the middle school alone has 4 lighted outdoor baseball/ soccer fields illuminated every night to 2300... indoor pools, ice rink, etc.. that I help pay for)

Now to why I find your post offensive:
You arbitrarily assigne your own secular beliefs (or at least reletavist religious ones) as the high point and be-all end-all of education.

I disagree. There is SO much to learn, you will never learn a significant fraction of what is out there to know in a specialized way. HOW it is taught (by secular dogma or religious) should be a parent's decision... especially given the results.

I actually attended for 12 years the same school as my daughter does now... and my 3 sisters each went k-12 there. Only one of us did not score in the top 1% of the country on our SATs and ACTs (the under achiever scored in the top 2%...). I finished [I]summa cum laude[U] a year early in my 4 year undergraduate honors program, and won international scholarships to graduate schools, taught overseas, etc... Doesn't sound to me like learnig the "Christian version of things", as you pointed out, hurt me in "the real world"...

And God forbid a child be educated by a believer-- which you think must mean:
QUOTE "because it is a religious school at all. This means one religion is pushed and advanced; others are excluded or made to feel worthless due to their religion. Religious dissension is punished"

I actually was a bit of a dissenter while at that same school... in my experience, well-articulated dissent was ok, as long as the discussion was civil. Frankly, I don't remember anyone "excluded due to their religion--we were there BECAUSE of our shared values and religion.

Also overlooked by you are positive aspects of the voluntary, religious nature of the school I went to: ZERO drug use (to include alcohol and tobacco), very little sexual activity by minors (and resulting pregnancy/ abortion/ STD), strong moral values such as no cheating and stealing, ect.

So when I see a post like yours that assumes that religious education= ignorance etc... it is offensive. What is your great experience that qualifies those opinions, anyway?

'nuff said for now.
ENSAIS

[Shaun]

So let me see now. If I am a deeply religious person--and in the US that means I PAY taxes for the public school near me to spend over 12k/ year per student.
I then sacrifice to pay again about 2500/ year for my child to go to a Christian school that is staffed by volunteers and teachers who make less than at that public school, and the facilities at my child's school do not compare with the lavish facilites at the local school (the middle school alone has 4 lighted outdoor baseball/ soccer fields illuminated every night to 2300... indoor pools, ice rink, etc.. that I help pay for)

Well its only your own fault for not using the facilites in public schools that you pay for.

Now to why I find your post offensive:
You arbitrarily assigne your own secular beliefs (or at least reletavist religious ones) as the high point and be-all end-all of education.

Isnt that whats happens in Christian schools?

I disagree. There is SO much to learn, you will never learn a significant fraction of what is out there to know in a specialized way. HOW it is taught (by secular dogma or religious) should be a parent's decision... especially given the results.

SO much, infact all of the truthfulness of Christian schools could also be learned in public schools.

And God forbid a child be educated by a believer-- which you think must mean:
QUOTE "because it is a religious school at all. This means one religion is pushed and advanced; others are excluded or made to feel worthless due to their religion. Religious dissension is punished"

Well I hardly beleive that all other religions and atheism and evolution are taught in Christian schools.

Also overlooked by you are positive aspects of the voluntary, religious nature of the school I went to: ZERO drug use (to include alcohol and tobacco), very little sexual activity by minors (and resulting pregnancy/ abortion/ STD), strong moral values such as no cheating and stealing, ect.

It not only Christians who have these morals you know, us athiests are not all baby eating, cheating promiscious monsers you know, Christianity does not need to be present for morals to be taken heed of, its common decency and common sense that gives us our morals. And who exactly do you that there is ZERO drug use? Do you do tests?

So when I see a post like yours that assumes that religious education= ignorance etc... it is offensive. What is your great experience that qualifies those opinions, anyway?

Well can you please answer that to us.
Does a Christian school teach about all other non Christian stuff like Atheism, abortion, sex, drugs, evolution, other religions, abortion, contraception and homosexuality?

[ENSAIS]

I appreciate that my objection got some attention.

I mean to keep this civil... so I'll try to turn down the rhetoric just a bit, and hopefully I'll get some reciprocity (turned down rhetoric).

What we are arguing about here to me based on my actual EXPERIENCE at a Christian (protestant, by the way) school for grades 1-6 and 8-12 (I was kicked out for all of 7th grade for fighting/ behavioral problems, and got a better attitude for when I came back in 8th...--and by the way, normal public schools do the same thing with remedial and reform schools--that is, kick out problem kids until they reform, etc.)


It seems to me that the folks who think that religious schools should not even be an option for a parent are basically saying that THEY know better:

They substitute their own values for secular humanism or even atheim (because they may personally not believe in God, or not want others to...) as the highest goal of education.

Really now, there is SO much to education. My own resume and the resume of others I know very well show quite well that religious education effectively gives you the tools for later success. Address this point: pragmatically speaking do you really believe that somehow the product of these religious schools are failing? Are their students "graduating" to be on wellfare?... Arguments of "cherry picking" to dismiss the results of these religious schools--at least where I live-- don't address the similar socio-economic standing of the students... who somehow do better on standardized test and later in college and in the workplace with religious schoool budgets about 20% those spent on the other kids in the distict (at least at my school...)

And yes, there is another agenda to religious education: religious values. Not your secular humanism, not your pro-gay agenda (which you already have dominating almost all urban public education systems, so you do have someplace to have YOUR values taught on the public dime). But I am not trying to withhold from YOU as a parent your ability to have your kid go to a school reflecting your values-- but you in your condescention would, if religious schools could not exist, as you argue for.

Finally, there was no need to drug test my soccer teamates, etc... I KNEW the people. Given that there were only 13-26 students in my class at any one time, and given that we truly shared the same community, I knew these people well. At age 15-17 it was surprising how innocent we were compared to other kids about drugs. And it was a good innocence-- I'm pretty sure most Americans would rather kids learn not to do drugs by listening to parents and ministers rather than by experience, wasting years of their potential using drugs to "learn" how bad they are.

Frankly, the line was much closer than that... our parents didn't allow smoking or drinking... and that almost always comes before drugs (although if it didn't for you, feel free to educate me).

Finally, a word about "ignorance" http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ignorant
Ignorant may mean knowing little or nothing, or it may mean uninformed about a particular subject" In this case, no offense intended, I think those who are knocking religious schools know little first hand about them. I actually attended a very well funded public school for 7th grade... I was not impressed. At 12 years old sex was fairly common, as was smoking, drinking, and pot... all in upstanding suburbia.

Even if you don't want me to be able to have the option, I want something better for my kid![/B]

Thank you, and please don't take any commentary as a personal insult... it is not meant that way. Just imagine someone was saying you should not be able to give your family something that you KNEW from your own experience was a vital, wonderful thing... not fun.

[Denny Crane!]

I appreciate that my objection got some attention.

I mean to keep this civil... so I'll try to turn down the rhetoric just a bit, and hopefully I'll get some reciprocity (turned down rhetoric).

What we are arguing about here to me based on my actual EXPERIENCE at a Christian (protestant, by the way) school for grades 1-6 and 8-12 (I was kicked out for all of 7th grade for fighting/ behavioral problems, and got a better attitude for when I came back in 8th...--and by the way, normal public schools do the same thing with remedial and reform schools--that is, kick out problem kids until they reform, etc.)


It seems to me that the folks who think that religious schools should not even be an option for a parent are basically saying that THEY know better:

They substitute their own values for secular humanism or even atheim (because they may personally not believe in God, or not want others to...) as the highest goal of education.

Really now, there is SO much to education. My own resume and the resume of others I know very well show quite well that religious education effectively gives you the tools for later success. Address this point: pragmatically speaking do you really believe that somehow the product of these religious schools are failing? Are their students "graduating" to be on wellfare?... Arguments of "cherry picking" to dismiss the results of these religious schools--at least where I live-- don't address the similar socio-economic standing of the students... who somehow do better on standardized test and later in college and in the workplace with religious schoool budgets about 20% those spent on the other kids in the distict (at least at my school...)

No in fact the fanatical Christian bigoted homophobic almost racist school I attended has consistently achieved the highest results (some years we are talking really close to the top in the country) year in and year out.

So do I think it is a good thing? Well and I know from discussion with a huge amount of former students that it has one of two effects, it either turns you into a rebel or an automaton. Now lose all negative conotations that automaton brings with it, this person is an effective well adjusted member of society. The rebel on the other hand is not, personally speaking I went to college and took drugs and drank instead of doing A levels. Reject many priniciples primarily religion but also authority which is a severe problem for me being a junior partner in a business (I can't take others opinion; I know best and I do really *ahem) In my cast it is not such a problem as the other conditioning in my life and intellectual ability has allowed to achieve success. I know many other people with the same ability who have not due to the lack of other positive influece in there life.

We also must address the possibility for bias in education and homophobic, creationism and bigoted attitudes present in these schools.

I implore you to research the Vardy CTC schools, emmanuel college in gateshead primarily. Nigel Mcqoid is a director, fomerly for a time my headmaster. A *******wit of royal proportions may I also add and not a person I would want influencing any of my childrens lives.

And yes, there is another agenda to religious education: religious values. Not your secular humanism, not your pro-gay agenda (which you already have dominating almost all urban public education systems, so you do have someplace to have YOUR values taught on the public dime). But I am not trying to withhold from YOU as a parent your ability to have your kid go to a school reflecting your values-- but you in your condescention would, if religious schools could not exist, as you argue for.

Religous values are in some way inherently good? Secularism allows in no way for a hate agenda of a particular group and I can live with agenda towards a group. Amazingly enough I don't want to promote the kind of attitudes that lead towards www.godhatesfags.com. I personally don't feel its a coincidence that there is a correlation between monotheistic religion and societal harm, though I can't prove the causation of such admittedly I can prove the correlation. Either way there is a link whether it be societal harm inspires religion or religion inspires societal harm. Either way not something I want encouraged.

You seem to think it is condescending to withhold religion from a school yet in the same way it is condescending of you to want religion to be a feature unless of course you want all religions to be considered. In which case a balanced view would be put forward taking into account all points of view including athiests which would really make the school secular as that is what a secular school is all about. Seperation from one point of view and consideration of all, that is why religion classes exist in a secular school.

So really that entire paragraph of yours is fallacious and erronoeus.

Finally, there was no need to drug test my soccer teamates, etc... I KNEW the people. Given that there were only 13-26 students in my class at any one time, and given that we truly shared the same community, I knew these people well. At age 15-17 it was surprising how innocent we were compared to other kids about drugs. And it was a good innocence-- I'm pretty sure most Americans would rather kids learn not to do drugs by listening to parents and ministers rather than by experience, wasting years of their potential using drugs to "learn" how bad they are.

Frankly, the line was much closer than that... our parents didn't allow smoking or drinking... and that almost always comes before drugs (although if it didn't for you, feel free to educate me).

Finally, a word about "ignorance" http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ignorant
Ignorant may mean knowing little or nothing, or it may mean uninformed about a particular subject" In this case, no offense intended, I think those who are knocking religious schools know little first hand about them. I actually attended a very well funded public school for 7th grade... I was not impressed. At 12 years old sex was fairly common, as was smoking, drinking, and pot... all in upstanding suburbia.

Even if you don't want me to be able to have the option, I want something better for my kid![/B]

Well I obviously came into this conversation late, but as mentioned I attended a veritable fanatical christian school so feel fairly well informed on the subject so I hope you can take my comments seriously.

Thank you, and please don't take any commentary as a personal insult... it is not meant that way. Just imagine someone was saying you should not be able to give your family something that you KNEW from your own experience was a vital, wonderful thing... not fun.

Peter

[RusskiSoldat]

Catholic and Greek Orthodox schools in New York are VERY good.
They are on the level of New York's specialised high schools and miles above most public schools.
At least as far as education and people not getting shot goes.

[LegionnaireX]

I've never actually heard of just a Christian school. It's either public or catholic around here, and its a complete joke anyway. The catholic schools around here are St. Xavier and Moeller. Most kids who go their go for the education or the athletics, not the religion. Hell, some kids that go to those schools aren't even catholic.

[Tom Paine]

I've never actually heard of just a Christian school. It's either public or catholic around here, and its a complete joke anyway. The catholic schools around here are St. Xavier and Moeller. Most kids who go their go for the education or the athletics, not the religion. Hell, some kids that go to those schools aren't even catholic.

But do they teach as religious schools, is the question? Is the education religiously oriented?
And here we have them. I have a friend who goes to one; I drew some of my above statements on them from his evidence.