Pike phalanxes - why ?

[Dan113112]

I assume the romans had some sort of "padding" beneath the chainmail though, like soldiers wore during the medieval times, so the blow might not be fatal. But nevertheless, chainmail doesn't offer that good protection against piercing attacks like sword/spear thrusts and arrows.

The scutum is another matter. I highly doubt the sarissas could punch through it. Or well, they might, but not very far. And perhaps risk getting the spearhead stuck on the shield (and thus quite easy to chop off).

I don't think Romans wore padding under mail. Usually they wore a linen/wool tunic and a scarf around the neck to keep the armor from chafing. A sarissa is nearly impossible to chop apart. It's very thick and made of Cornel wood. A very strong wood.

[vietanh797]

Well, I think chainmail is generally somewhat vulnerable to "piercing" attacks due to its nature of being highly resistant to slashing attacks due to its flexibility. So, I'd say based on what I've read and seen test about chainmails effectiveness, that a 2-handed spear thrust probably should pierce it. I assume the romans had some sort of "padding" beneath the chainmail though, like soldiers wore during the medieval times, so the blow might not be fatal. But nevertheless, chainmail doesn't offer that good protection against piercing attacks like sword/spear thrusts and arrows.

The scutum is another matter. I highly doubt the sarissas could punch through it. Or well, they might, but not very far. And perhaps risk getting the spearhead stuck on the shield (and thus quite easy to chop off).

No, it is not. Enemies are behind the shield, you pierce through the shield then you will pierce through the enemies behind it. Honestly the Hoplon not a match to the Sarrissa why you guys think a Scutum can do some **** here?

Anna_Gein: Roman army was never 100% Roman either.. most of the time, it wasn't even 50% Roman.. especially during Macedonian wars..



Plutarch mentions shock and awe and frustration, anyway if that was the case, how would they retreat with entire line just to form few meters away into a formation? if it was a rout, i really doubt somebody would manage to stop them from running.. especially because there were only 2 Roman legions in the field and majority of force was formed by Greek Allies... Its not that easy thing to do this with thousand of men especially during ancient times where there was just no way to quickly pass orders... Everything had to be planned up front. Plus, at the time of Pydna, Romans still used their usual deployment with Hastati,Principes and Triarii, so its quite possible the initial clash was against the Hastati, who withdrawn behind Principes.

have you ever heard of using trumpet or similar tools to issue command?

[JaM]

Anna_Gein: Roman army was never 100% Roman either.. most of the time, it wasn't even 50% Roman.. especially during Macedonian wars..

What ? Where did you get this idea ? Seriously I even posted Plutarch account of the first stage of the battle and it is clear Romans were not feinting anything.

Plutarch mentions shock and awe and frustration, anyway if that was the case, how would they retreat with entire line just to form few meters away into a formation? if it was a rout, i really doubt somebody would manage to stop them from running.. especially because there were only 2 Roman legions in the field and majority of force was formed by Greek Allies... Its not that easy thing to do this with thousand of men especially during ancient times where there was just no way to quickly pass orders... Everything had to be planned up front. Plus, at the time of Pydna, Romans still used their usual deployment with Hastati,Principes and Triarii, so its quite possible the initial clash was against the Hastati, who withdrawn behind Principes.

[JaM]

I think this is a load of theoretical crap. No offense. It's like you think the sarissa was meant for fighting unarmored opponents when it was exactly the opposite.

nope, just very simplified physics... you can do your own math if you want, anyway these numbers were used by some historians as well. Not sure why you think i said sarrisa was supposed to face unarmored enemy.. i never said such thing, anyway its kinetic energy potential from default use would not allow it to penetrate heavy armor. thats just simple fact... you know, we are all humans, and our bodies are quite similar to those who lived in ancient times.. And because they also lived on earth, same physical laws applied to them as they apply to us. So, if you take info you can gather, you can count impact energy for weapons.. its not a nuclear science.. yes, my example was quite simplistic, as i have ignored few things like shape of attacking projectile, or gravity effect on forward movement anyway it was not supposed to be 100% accurate.. just to give things into perspective...

btw, did you knew normal athletic men can only deliver just 50 joules of energy with under arm thrust and about 100 joules with overarm slash? its something that was tested some time ago by one American university that made some research on melee combat... It actually means, you have no chance to penetrate Chainmail with a sword no matter how strong you might be...

[Dan113112]

nope, just very simplified physics... you can do your own math if you want, anyway these numbers were used by some historians as well. Not sure why you think i said sarrisa was supposed to face unarmored enemy.. i never said such thing, anyway its kinetic energy potential from default use would not allow it to penetrate heavy armor. thats just simple fact... you know, we are all humans, and our bodies are quite similar to those who lived in ancient times.. And because they also lived on earth, same physical laws applied to them as they apply to us. So, if you take info you can gather, you can count impact energy for weapons.. its not a nuclear science.. yes, my example was quite simplistic, as i have ignored few things like shape of attacking projectile, or gravity effect on forward movement anyway it was not supposed to be 100% accurate.. just to give things into perspective...

btw, did you knew normal athletic men can only deliver just 50 joules of energy with under arm thrust and about 100 joules with overarm slash? its something that was tested some time ago by one American university that made some research on melee combat... It actually means, you have no chance to penetrate Chainmail with a sword no matter how strong you might be...

But the way you're delivering those stats gives the impression that the sarissa was not lethal. It certainly was. It appears that you think that phalangites used light armor which not true either. As I said in a previous post most mortal wounds were inflicted in the head, neck, armpits, and groin. And you also have to take into account that the sarissa would still knock you down and a battalion will pin a formation of enemies down.

btw, at Pydna Romans Plutarch reported just 100 dead Romans... thats not that much to cause general retreat of whole army, isnt it.. even 10x more would be not a good reason for this...

Casualties at Pydna are about 1000 dead and numerous others wounded on the Roman side. Greek casualties were 25, 000 but this was killed, wounded, and captured. I'd say the Greeks lost at least 5000 dead, though.

I would certainly not trust this kind of casualties report from Plutarch. As much as I appreciate Sulla 12 dead at the Battle of Chaeronea (86 BC) for 110 000 killed is ridiculous and does not make credit to Sulla's victory.

Not to mention that it's physically impossible.

[JaM]

vietanh797: once your auxilia is retreating, you can play music whatever you want, it wont stop them from retreating... human beings are not some robots they would do what you want them to do without any questions...


btw, at Pydna Romans Plutarch reported just 100 dead Romans... thats not that much to cause general retreat of whole army, isnt it.. even 10x more would be not a good reason for this...

[vietanh797]

vietanh797: once your auxilia is retreating, you can play music whatever you want, it wont stop them from retreating... human beings are not some robots they would do what you want them to do without any questions...

Human being tend to stay together in group to increase their survival rate. Especially trained troops will try to stay in formation rather than run around.
high quality Bronze Breastplate can't stop sarrissa and I welcome you to try, I rather run from a sarrissa than face it

[JaM]

Human being tend to stay together in group to increase their survival rate. Especially trained troops will try to stay in formation rather than run around.
high quality Bronze Breastplate can't stop sarrissa and I welcome you to try, I rather run from a sarrissa than face it

but you said they were defeated and running away already...

[vietanh797]

but you said they were defeated and running away already...

really? where did I said that? can you quote it?
I only use one example of a group of veterans phalangites able to defeat a much younger group without a single lost and when surrounded they just form a square and walk out of the battle as if the enemy are dummies.
It was to show you the difference of a good trained unit and a crappy one. Yet you just continue to assume that all phalangites unit are just act like the one in Roman-Macedon war without even a little understanding that Phalangites even fought in "Jungle" which much harsher terrain than the stupid hill that Roman win Macedon.

[Anna_Gein]

Was there more Greeks allies than Italian allies ? If I am not mistaken Rome had trouble to ensure that its non-Italian allies raised enough troops to support the campaign.

At Pydna the Roman retreat does not appear to be immediate or even quick. Mind you I think it is a remarkable achievement that they manage to retreat in order and to successfully counter attack latter. Romans officers were clearly superior to Macedonians officers at this point.

We can not be sure if the Polybian deployment in three lines was still in use. The only thing we can be sure is that it was not anymore existing when the official Marian reforms occurred in 107 BC. Pydna is roughly in the middle between the Polybian Army and Marian Army so it may have completely disappeared at this point.

I would certainly not trust this kind of casualties report from Plutarch. As much as I appreciate Sulla 12 dead at the Battle of Chaeronea (86 BC) for 110 000 killed is ridiculous and does not make credit to Sulla's skills.

[JaM]

Was there more Greeks allies than Italian allies ? If I am not mistaken Rome had trouble to ensure that its non-Italian allies raised enough troops to support the campaign.

At Pydna the Roman retreat does not appear to be immediate or even quick. Mind you I think it is a remarkable achievement that they manage to retreat in order and to successfully counter attack latter. Romans officers were clearly superior to Macedonians officers at this point.

We can not be sure if the Polybian deployment in three lines was still in use. The only thing we can be sure is that it was not anymore existing when the official Marian reforms occurred in 107 BC. Pydna is roughly in the middle between the Polybian Army and Marian Army so it may have completely disappeared at this point.

I would certainly not trust this kind of casualties report from Plutarch. As much as I appreciate Sulla 12 dead at the Battle of Chaeronea (86 BC) for 110 000 killed is ridiculous and does not make credit to Sulla's skills.

Even with Cohortal system Roman standard deployment was with 3 lines, where 4 cohorts would be in first line, 3 in second and 3 in third, where third line could be used to extend the line.

check this: http://www.garyb.0catch.com/pharsalu...eployment.html

THis is the Deployment of Caesar army at Pharsalus during Civil War. As you can see both Pompey and Caesar used standard deployment,anyway Caesar took several cohorts from third rank to face Pompey's cavalry.


btw this entire web page is full of excelent info about roman tactics and weapons

http://www.garyb.0catch.com/site_map.html

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

We can not be sure if the Polybian deployment in three lines was still in use. The only thing we can be sure is that it was not anymore existing when the official Marian reforms occurred in 107 BC. Pydna is roughly in the middle between the Polybian Army and Marian Army so it may have completely disappeared at this point.

My knowledge from the "Die Armee der Caesaren" from Thomas Fischer, is that at this time the cohort was used on the Iberian theatre, where it was invented/adapted, while in the Macedonian Wars the old system was used. In other workes i read that this should have to do with the advantages of the cohort against smaller tribal warbands, while the old system was better to fight organized Armies like the hellenic ones, which should been the reason why the cohort appears there much later. That sounds plausible on the first thought but i am not fully convinced. Still it appears that the cohort wasn't use at this time in the Macedonian War.

[JaM]

60 joules of energy is enough to kill you.. even 10 is enough... 60 is enough to go through any leather armor (the most numerous form of armor), and based on what exactly was lino-thorax made, it would be about enough to dent that too. Anyway it would be definitely not enough to go through riveted chain mail, or plate armor. based on some good book about bronze metallurgy during ancient times, Bronze Breastplate would be resistant to it too, high quality Bronze Breastplate had resistance just very slightly lower than steel... Which was the reason why only rich people could afford it..

Yes, Mail didnt covered entire body, there were spots you could hit to kill a man (and roman legionaries practiced this a lot, as their shortswords were ideal for such thrusts into weak spots, as any short thrusting weapon).

Joules table is just to compare how potent some weapons were, so you can put them into proper contest... like for example Roman Balistae, which could deliver bolts with kinetic energy comparable to modern weapons.. (1.5kg javelin fired at speed of 40m/s would have kinetic energy of 1200 joules... enough to penetrate any sort of armor and go through several men...)

[Ichon]

60 joules of energy is enough to kill you.. even 10 is enough... 60 is enough to go through any leather armor (the most numerous form of armor), and based on what exactly was lino-thorax made, it would be about enough to dent that too. Anyway it would be definitely not enough to go through riveted chain mail, or plate armor. based on some good book about bronze metallurgy during ancient times, Bronze Breastplate would be resistant to it too, high quality Bronze Breastplate had resistance just very slightly lower than steel... Which was the reason why only rich people could afford it..

Yes, Mail didnt covered entire body, there were spots you could hit to kill a man (and roman legionaries practiced this a lot, as their shortswords were ideal for such thrusts into weak spots, as any short thrusting weapon).

Joules table is just to compare how potent some weapons were, so you can put them into proper contest... like for example Roman Balistae, which could deliver bolts with kinetic energy comparable to modern weapons.. (1.5kg javelin fired at speed of 40m/s would have kinetic energy of 1200 joules... enough to penetrate any sort of armor and go through several men...)

Not sure where you are getting information but thrusting tests I've seen nearly everywhere break through riveted mail. If something predicted by math is shown to be repeatedly wrong in real testing it is time to adjust the formula.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131

Also the fact that gladius which is a broader and less narrow point than a spear was able to thrust past Celtic mail occasionally. Usually gladius was used 1 handed so 2 handed spear thrust seems likely to have penetrated mail as well. Mail certainly offered significant protection though as only a determined blow could penetrate and in a real battle such blow are harder to come by then testing against unmoving targets. Similarly testing penetrating a recreated Scutum has shown it can be penetrated by arrow and spears but not easily and in a battle where the shield is an active defensive and offensive weapon landing a sufficient squared blow is probably quite difficult. In fact it seems most likely to have occurred vs phalanx since there are multiple ranks each with a chance to try.

[JaM]

Not sure where you are getting information but thrusting tests I've seen nearly everywhere break through riveted mail. If something predicted by math is shown to be repeatedly wrong in real testing it is time to adjust the formula.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131

Also the fact that gladius which is a broader and less narrow point than a spear was able to thrust past Celtic mail occasionally. Usually gladius was used 1 handed so 2 handed spear thrust seems likely to have penetrated mail as well. Mail certainly offered significant protection though as only a determined blow could penetrate and in a real battle such blow are harder to come by then testing against unmoving targets. Similarly testing penetrating a recreated Scutum has shown it can be penetrated by arrow and spears but not easily and in a battle where the shield is an active defensive and offensive weapon landing a sufficient squared blow is probably quite difficult. In fact it seems most likely to have occurred vs phalanx since there are multiple ranks each with a chance to try.

as i said, formula was just a simple way how to show kinetic energy potential, while ignoring shape of attacking head and several other important factors. Tests made against Riveted mail are rare and this particular was at least done correctly. Anyway as you can see, even with compound bow and modern arrows, you would have to get quite close to get penetration. With swords things are different - ones used in this test are medieval and renaissance types specifically designed to deal with armor. During Ancient times swords and spears were not so ideally shaped to guarantee a penetration against mail. (Mail was in use for 1000 years, so it makes sense that after all that time we were able to come with melee weapon effective against it)

btw thanks for the link, i'm visiting myarmoury a lot, anyway i was not there for some time, but this thread is worth reading

[Kraxis]

Not sure where you are getting information but thrusting tests I've seen nearly everywhere break through riveted mail. If something predicted by math is shown to be repeatedly wrong in real testing it is time to adjust the formula.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131

Also the fact that gladius which is a broader and less narrow point than a spear was able to thrust past Celtic mail occasionally. Usually gladius was used 1 handed so 2 handed spear thrust seems likely to have penetrated mail as well. Mail certainly offered significant protection though as only a determined blow could penetrate and in a real battle such blow are harder to come by then testing against unmoving targets. Similarly testing penetrating a recreated Scutum has shown it can be penetrated by arrow and spears but not easily and in a battle where the shield is an active defensive and offensive weapon landing a sufficient squared blow is probably quite difficult. In fact it seems most likely to have occurred vs phalanx since there are multiple ranks each with a chance to try.

For the love of... Man that was one nice thread! Especially if you take the link to the maille page where that author pretty much dismisses the idea of penetrating maille with stabs (which I found to be fairly silly). Power equations are clearly not everything, or perhaps much at all? The ease with which the poleaxe and the Talhoffer both penetrated it pretty much affirmed that a pike should be able to do same. The point of the pikes were, for weightreasons, rather slim (sorry for the small picture, but it was the best I could find quickly).

I also loved the jack tests, some of the results surprised me a great deal. Like the weakness of certain swords at cutting it, the strength or others (the katana was a beast!) and the utter failure of the dagger to penetrate through it.

We should be happy that someone was willing to risk his expensive gear this way (compare the results to the cheap maille from India and quality is an obvious concern).

[Dan113112]

For the love of... Man that was one nice thread! Especially if you take the link to the maille page where that author pretty much dismisses the idea of penetrating maille with stabs (which I found to be fairly silly). Power equations are clearly not everything, or perhaps much at all? The ease with which the poleaxe and the Talhoffer both penetrated it pretty much affirmed that a pike should be able to do same. The point of the pikes were, for weightreasons, rather slim (sorry for the small picture, but it was the best I could find quickly).

I also loved the jack tests, some of the results surprised me a great deal. Like the weakness of certain swords at cutting it, the strength or others (the katana was a beast!) and the utter failure of the dagger to penetrate through it.

We should be happy that someone was willing to risk his expensive gear this way (compare the results to the cheap maille from India and quality is an obvious concern).

I liked the thread as well. But there are some things that I didn't like. First, A quilted linen gambeson can stop an arrow by itself without mail. I saw this done with a longbow on a show on the History channel. If you look at the arrow test the arrows went through the mail. In ancient times most soldiers wouldn't/didn't wear thick padding. They'd be dead. The same could be said for stabbing attacks from melee weapons. All of these tests were done with a gambeson behind the mail like in medieval times. All of the info I've seen tells me that Romans didn't usually wear thick padding beneath mail. It was usually just a single layer wool or linen tunic. If it was padded it would only be a few layers. I read that centurions did wear a sort of linen cuirass beneath hamate, though. Maybe some regular soldiers wore something similar.

[Kraxis]

I liked the thread as well. But there are some things that I didn't like. First, A quilted linen gambeson can stop an arrow by itself without mail. I saw this done with a longbow on a show on the History channel. If you look at the arrow test the arrows went through the mail. In ancient times most soldiers wouldn't/didn't wear thick padding. They'd be dead. The same could be said for stabbing attacks from melee weapons. All of these tests were done with a gambeson behind the mail like in medieval times. All of the info I've seen tells me that Romans didn't usually wear thick padding beneath mail. It was usually just a single layer wool or linen tunic. If it was padded it would only be a few layers. I read that centurions did wear a sort of linen cuirass beneath hamate, though.

Yes, the arrow went through the maille, but didn't penetrate the 10x-jack. And it makes sense. The point is pointed, but not sharp, so it has to force the quilts apart, one at a time, even breaking the individual threads. That requires a lot of power. But if the arrowhead gets into a riveted link, it will break it open. So I don't know why this is an issue, it is presented very nicely that maille isn't terribly great against pointed arrow, but layered linen armour certainly is. And that makes for a very credible explanation why some people wore the gambeson over the maille. And it also makes sense now why horse armour to a great extent was quilted, as the greatest danger to the horse on the battlefield would be from ranged weapons (the size would make it a pincushion).

I know the Romans didn't wear much padding, if at all, but that only accentuates the results. This was a clear medieval test, but I doubt that ancient maille was of poorer quality to the point that it would have a pointed effect, or that much better for that matter. The tests were credible for both medieval settings and ancient. And I doubt the centurions wore anything elaborate under their main armour. There are some carvings showing what appear to be a sculpted armour over the hamata (but that would be prohibitively heavy.

[Charerg]

I wonder why you're so confident that Sarissas can punch through heavy shields and bronze breastplates as if they were paper?

I would personally put more weight on some actual tests than to accounts of ancient historians, as they loved to write colourful descriptions of battles that weren't necessarily accurate accounts. I'm not saying that they can't, I don't know if they can, but I'd like to see some actual evidence that the Sarissas possess such fearsome penetrating power.

[torongill]

The sarissa weighs a lot - up to 6.5 kilogram for the longest sarissa - it is 5 to 6 meters long, hard and thick(much thicker than one-handed spear) ash shaft, a big spike that acts as a counterbalance and a long point. And that's without the bronze sleeve in the middle that connects the two parts of the shaft. IIRC the phalangitai actually had a carrying sling so that they could shoulder the pike. Now, imagine this weapon, held in two hands, delivering a two-handed blow, using a pendulum-like motion. Add the forward momentum of the pikeman and also the momentum of the enemy who is charging against the pike.

Compare this to the one-handed gladius - weight up to 0.9 kilogram for the heaviest examples. That means that even if it hits with three times the speed, it will deliver less than half of the energy of the sarissa. Besides, can you really use the momentum of the charging enemy against him? I'm not entirely sure you could.