Pike phalanxes - why ?

[Anna_Gein]

Even if Philip V was the aggressor there is no reason to call him a betrayer.

[JaM]

you never heard of it, because we have just limited knowledge about those times.. after all thousands of years passed, and only sources from that time we have are from historians that lived hundreds of years later... diminishing the power of Pillum to disrupt formations is not right. Even if we ignore wounding and killing potential of heavy javelin, it was still a 1.5m long heavy stick laying on the ground between lines, or inside of enemy line... just marching over such obstacles would be quite problematic in close formation no matter what.

Plus, as mentioned here several times, at Pydna we have an example where Romans managed to break Phalanx from the front by presenting variable resistance across the entire line... yes, Phalanx had to advance forward into bad terrain, but also Roman maniples didnt pressed on along the entire line but only at certain pards, which caused parts of Phalanx that were not engaged to march forward and create gaps that could be exploited by more mobile Roman Maniples... and once they got close... it was a massacre.

[Ichon]

Plus, as mentioned here several times, at Pydna we have an example where Romans managed to break Phalanx from the front by presenting variable resistance across the entire line... yes, Phalanx had to advance forward into bad terrain, but also Roman maniples didnt pressed on along the entire line but only at certain pards, which caused parts of Phalanx that were not engaged to march forward and create gaps that could be exploited by more mobile Roman Maniples... and once they got close... it was a massacre.

The question in this case would be balance... since any human player (or even AI if coded) could stop any unit in a line of phalanx from advancing too far exposing a flank to attack. It happened easily with limited command and control and unevenly trained men in history but in the game it would likely be rare with only extremely poor micro or no guard stance for any units causing it to happen much. In that case phalanx becomes much more difficult to face as long unbroken line offers flanking opportunities only at 2 points on either end of the line instead of multiple seams between the advancing units. In that case for balance probably phalanx should be able to be fought frontally by heavy infantry in melee or maybe take heavy losses from javelins due to slower speed most of the time.

[vietanh797]

you never heard of it, because we have just limited knowledge about those times.. after all thousands of years passed, and only sources from that time we have are from historians that lived hundreds of years later... diminishing the power of Pillum to disrupt formations is not right. Even if we ignore wounding and killing potential of heavy javelin, it was still a 1.5m long heavy stick laying on the ground between lines, or inside of enemy line... just marching over such obstacles would be quite problematic in close formation no matter what.

Plus, as mentioned here several times, at Pydna we have an example where Romans managed to break Phalanx from the front by presenting variable resistance across the entire line... yes, Phalanx had to advance forward into bad terrain, but also Roman maniples didnt pressed on along the entire line but only at certain pards, which caused parts of Phalanx that were not engaged to march forward and create gaps that could be exploited by more mobile Roman Maniples... and once they got close... it was a massacre.

What you saying is just ... stupid, if you take a further looking back to history Philips II and Alexander did fought the Thracian with his army. And it was clearly that the Thracian much more better than Roman at using javelineer and their army also base a lot on those javelineer yet the Thracian was beaten.

[Dan113112]

Sorry, I'm having trouble with the forum.

@JaM: You can kick over a heavy javelin. I've done it in track practice. I think this is a straw-man, honestly. Still, there's no denying that the pilum was an effective weapon. To say it was a battle winner all of the time is stretching the truth.

Part of a phalanx line would only advance because of a lack of training. Look at Alexander's army. It had dozens of generals which had subordinate officers and NCOs. Even when you watch the Battle of Gaugamela in the movie Alexander you can see the generals and officers keeping the line in order. Whether the ill-trained phalangietes at Pydna had these officers is a different story. There also seems to be a trend in this thread that says once you get past the sarissas the phalangites cannot fight anymore. Remember, the phalangites are carrying a metal covered convex shield of a decent size and a sword.

[Sar1n]

Javelins were most effective at wrecking enemy shields, not in dealing the killing blows. Phalangites that can't discard shield that easily might find it easier to survive the pila.

[Dan113112]

Javelins were most effective at wrecking enemy shields, not in dealing the killing blows. Phalangites that can't discard shield that easily might find it easier to survive the pila.

Yeah, most of us know this. However, there are so many factors when dealing with javelins. Even holding a shield at a certain angle could even cause the javelin to be deflected. People seem that once it contacts a target it automatically does it's job every time.

[TR00PER7]

I just want to point out two things I read a reenactor had said about spear and shield fighting and two things he brought up made some sense but I dont know if the same applies to pikemen.

He said that you didn't attack the person in front of you, but rather the exposed gaps in-between shields which would usually be the neighbors of the enemy in front of you. I wonder if competent pikemen would attack at an angle at the exposed gaps in a shield wall rather than attacking directly at the shield its self as that isn't going to have much effect unless its one of those easy-to-penetrate wicker shields. From what pictures I have seen, all the pikes look in-line and the gaps are very obvious, but if they were to cross, then the legions have a big clump of overlapping wooden poles blocking their path with possible pike heads poking out.

But he also mentioned Prodding with spears where you thrust your spear at the enemy shield in order to throw it off center in hope that your ally would attack the shield user's exposed side. Since the roman shield was held in the center at the wrist, its fairly easy to turn the shield when blows hit the sides as I have held a large oval shield and found that the shield would turn left and right when I received a blow. But this was fairly easily avoided by holding the shield closer to my body and using my elbow and knee to support it to stop the shield from moving and exposing me. But prodding in general could be enough to stop the swordsmen from trying to pass through the pikes heads but instead take notice of them and try and parry them with his shield or sword, thus keeping him at a distance.

[torongill]

It's quite possible that a lot of men couldn't really tell which was their pike head, when there are ten others around and all of them are moving back and forth to strike at the enemy. I'm not sure whether striking the shield of the opponent would open him for attack by your neighbour - remember that he also has neighbours and he is also attacking. The phalangite shield is supported by the entire left forearm and is held next to the body, while a shield strap/belt diagonally around the torso holds it close to its owner.

Another thing is that such a stroke is more or less wasted. You waste a "tempo", allowing your opponent to attack you with impunity. The only reason to attack the enemy shield and not the enemy is if you are beyond certain that you will survive more than one strike and the enemy cannot.

[Sar1n]

I'm not sure whether striking the shield of the opponent would open him for attack by your neighbour - remember that he also has neighbours and he is also attacking. The phalangite shield is supported by the entire left forearm and is held next to the body, while a shield strap/belt diagonally around the torso holds it close to its owner.

Another thing is that such a stroke is more or less wasted. You waste a "tempo", allowing your opponent to attack you with impunity. The only reason to attack the enemy shield and not the enemy is if you are beyond certain that you will survive more than one strike and the enemy cannot.

These things would apply only for one on one, close melee combat. Fight against pike phalanx is neither. When, say, roman cohort faces deployed phalanx, every soldier in first rank of cohort is facing five phalangites at once, while troops behind him can only throw pila at best, and he has to get past five spearpoints to strike. At that situation, one phalangite pushing enemy's shield away so another one can strike is entirely reasonable.

[JaM]

These things would apply only for one on one, close melee combat. Fight against pike phalanx is neither. When, say, roman cohort faces deployed phalanx, every soldier in first rank of cohort is facing five phalangites at once, while troops behind him can only throw pila at best, and he has to get past five spearpoints to strike. At that situation, one phalangite pushing enemy's shield away so another one can strike is entirely reasonable.

soory but you assuming that phalangities had complete control of their sarrisas, which is not the case.. while we dont have any direct mentions from ancient times, Pikemen used during Renaisance and later left historical mentions of pike combat, especially mentions that it was impossible to say which pike head is yours in direct combat.. and renaisance pikes were not as long as sarrisas. And even if we assume its not the case for Ancient Pikemen, you still have several lines of pikemen placed behind each other, men in second rank would have much worse idea whats going on in front of his formation, while men in third,fourth and fifth rank would have no idea whatsoever...

[vietanh797]

soory but you assuming that phalangities had complete control of their sarrisas, which is not the case.. while we dont have any direct mentions from ancient times, Pikemen used during Renaisance and later left historical mentions of pike combat, especially mentions that it was impossible to say which pike head is yours in direct combat.. and renaisance pikes were not as long as sarrisas. And even if we assume its not the case for Ancient Pikemen, you still have several lines of pikemen placed behind each other, men in second rank would have much worse idea whats going on in front of his formation, while men in third,fourth and fifth rank would have no idea whatsoever...

Well even if you dont know which pike head is yours, you can still have the sense of direction and the feeling of hitting a target help you. If you train with a weapon long enough those feeling are enough to control the weapon and even if you are blindfold you can feel that your weapon was pushed, blocked, hit or even broke. It is the same as have the feeling of wielding a sword cutting fresh human meat, once you taste such feeling it is impossible to mistaken such feeling with a different one.

Did you ever heard of guys fighting in dark the guy with longer weapon will stand still and wave his weapon while holding the end of it? once it touch something he will know what is it, if it touch enemy he will attack.

also you taken too little the number of officers in rank of Phalangites, they didn't stand there just for show but also to pass down orders.

[MathiasOfAthens]

@OP The gods invented paragraphs. Use them.

[torongill]

That might work against a flat shield. Against a scutum it wouldn't be that easy - the curvature means that just with a flick of his hand the legionary can deflect the blow to his left or right. You'd have to hit it dead center for a certain hit and that of course defeats the whole purpose of "put his shield aside". Plus in the "dead center" of the early Roman shield was a wooden rib, which has even smaller surface that guarantees a solid hit.

[JaM]

again.. all you wrote is only applicable for those in first rank. any soldier behind them will have no idea what they are hitting... and we are not talking about one on one scenario.. so your examples are completly wrong.

[Sar1n]

again.. all you wrote is only applicable for those in first rank. any soldier behind them will have no idea what they are hitting... and we are not talking about one on one scenario.. so your examples are completly wrong.

It takes just one man with decent control to open up enemy for attack. Those four others can just jab blindly and one will eventually hit.

[vietanh797]

again.. all you wrote is only applicable for those in first rank. any soldier behind them will have no idea what they are hitting... and we are not talking about one on one scenario.. so your examples are completly wrong.

Again you have no idea how a soldier trained with weapon for a few years can become. What you thinking now is you stand behind a soldier, not a soldier behind a soldier. And that for sure that you won't have any idea what you hitting since you are an amateur atmost.
My example was to explain to you that you don't have to see enemies nor where the point of your spear is to hit your enemies. And it much clear to me that you have zero experience in using a spear or pike which eventually lead to your crap logic that we are reading up until now.

Let me tell you that a person who train his hand for 2 year can single hand holding a flag pole 3m long which already more than half the length of a Sarissa, the weight is similar and the flag of course have no counter weight.
You are someone in a world of amateur, judging everything under your skill and think that all people out there are the same.

There are 4 kind of people: amateur, trained, master and professional. it isn't easy to get someone ass to rank 4th but rank 3rd are plenty, most men who have 5 years training can reach this stage.
Trained one need 2 or 3 years.

[JaM]

unless he become transparent, i don't think amount of training will make any difference with this...