Pike phalanxes - why ?

[torongill]

You are ignoring the second part of the statement apparently... Whole sentence was - horses wont crash into infantry formation at full speed..
As mentioned before, with 6m sarissa you would have no idea where your pike head is pointing.. and another important fact about pike (quite obvious) it can only hurt with its end.. once you are past it, its just a long stick you are holding...
And i add a new one.. what do you think, how long would average soldier be able to hold 6m pike horizontally and thrust with it forward... and what happens when he is tired and unable to do it anymore?

That's exactly it, you have no real idea where your pike is pointing, but the graph suggests that you do have exact knowledge of the position of the pike and that you choose to point it only forward, whereas the legionary facing you also has exact knowledge of the pikes he's facing and that there won't be another one coming from the side to stab him in the side while he's concentrating on the pikes in front.
The problem with the sarissa phalanx is that once you're past the sarissa point, there are four more left.
Depends on training and on the balance of the sarissa. With a carrying sling on his shoulder providing additional support and the shield hanging from the strap the pikeman will have a big part of the load removed from his hands. I haven't held a sarissa, but I'd say that with training you won't be outlasted by the legionary, who has a 8-10 kilo of shield in his left arm and a 0.8-1 kilogram sword in the other and is trying to either hack the pike heads off or move between two adjacent pikes Of course, the problem you are facing is that when the legionary tires, he will be substituted by another fresh one, whereas it's not entirely certain someone will take your place. At best you may look forward to a second pike to replace the first broken one

[vietanh797]

We can imagine the phalanx like a heavy tanks battle line and the cavalry/assault troops like an assault group with mostly medium tanks and light tanks
A head on attack is suicide almost 100% no matter what you are
But if you flank and hit the weaker part of armor the heavy tank hardly able to react in time(doesn't mean they can't)

[Sir. Cunningham]

*sigh*

[Dan113112]

*sigh*

Go on, tell us how you really feel (sarcasm).

[Sir. Cunningham]

There will always be gaps in a Phalanx formation to exploit (esp. after a heavy barrage of pilas), and once you've broken into that gap it quickly turns into a gaping wound, and that's one of the ways the Romans defeated a Phalanx. However you'd need the right equipment & tactics to achieve this, which the Romans had & developed.

[Dan113112]

There will always be gaps in a Phalanx formation to exploit (esp. after a heavy barrage of pilas), and once you've broken into that gap it quickly turns into a gaping wound, and that's one of the ways the Romans defeated a Phalanx. However you'd need the right equipment & tactics to achieve this, which the Romans had & developed.

You can only throw the pilum from so far away and the phalanx is closing on you. There's also the chance that the rear members of the phalanx will just move up and replace those hit. This tactic sounds good but in reality there's no mention of it actually working.

[vietanh797]

heavy barrage of pilas? it can be effective at disable the shield of Hoplite but comeon phalangites formation isn't a 6 line deep like Hoplite, They can easily replace the space just by step forward.
In history no record about frontal attack with normal infantry that break a phalanx form by Phalangites why you guys keep repeat what never happened before ?

[Anna_Gein]

Of what use this "heavy barrage of pilum" was at Atrax ?

Could you base your point of view on facts a few times. You know for the fun ... Do you have any text, inscription, sculpture to back up your theory ? (To be clear I don't ask links to an other forum where a different dude throw the same theory out of nowhere as you are doing here.)

[torongill]

So why didn't it work, Sir Cunningham?

[Charerg]

Not to mention that the phalangites had shortswords as well, if the romans did get close enough that the pikes became a liability. Though I guess all but the most elite pikemen would be relatively lightly armored compared to the romans. That said, I think it's quite possible that when infantry lines class, the romans might be able, with sufficient numbers and determination, to break through the spear wall. They would suffer heavy losses however, even though the pilas would no doubt soften the phalanx somewhat.

But I definitely don't consider the phalanx impenetrable from the front. I think it was probably fairly common even for phalanxes that the melee combat would degenerate into a chaotic close-up fighting. Especially in phalanx-to-phalanx combat as this happened during the Renaissance when two pike squares clashed. The pikes are powerful weapons, and allowed the rear ranks to attack as well, not just the ones in the front, but even then they probably can't hold off a determined assault forever. The phalangites did carry those shortswords for a reason, after all.

[JaM]

First. PILLUM was designed not to just disable the shield - this was actually pretty much secondary purpose, which was not desired until Marius reforms - It was Marius who ordered to remove one nail from wooden shaft and replace it with wooden, so iron part would displace and bend into L . It was not iron/steel part that was supposed to bend, and modern day tests proved it that pilum would not bend on impact.

So what was the purpose of long and thin iron part? Its simple - To overcome the distance between shield and soldier using the shield. Once Pillum penetrated the shield, it would continue until it hits the soldier behind the shield - It would be extremely dangerous the Greek shield style, as these were usually fixed to the hand, which meant there was very small standoff distance between shield and body. Roman Scutum was held in the hand therefore would be less impacted.


Oh, and one thing.. Plutarch lived 46 AD-120 AD - He actually never saw Macedonian Phalanx, Greek Hoplites etc... he was describing things that happened 200+ years before he was born.. While he had certainly access to some texts from that time, anyway as all such works, author often adds something own, especially if he writes about his ancestors... Its like taking literally some 19.century author on 16.century combat techniques...

[Dan113112]

So what was the purpose of long and thin iron part? Its simple - To overcome the distance between shield and soldier using the shield. Once Pillum penetrated the shield, it would continue until it hits the soldier behind the shield - It would be extremely dangerous the Greek shield style, as these were usually fixed to the hand, which meant there was very small standoff distance between shield and body. Roman Scutum was held in the hand therefore would be less impacted.

A pilum would go straight through a scutum and kill any person behind it as well. The pilum was made primarily for penetrating board shields and not Hellenistic shields. Also remember that Hellenistic shields were often oak (or some other hardwood) covered in metal while the Roman shield was made out of an early form of plywood.

[Anna_Gein]

Not to mention that the phalangites had shortswords as well, if the romans did get close enough that the pikes became a liability. Though I guess all but the most elite pikemen would be relatively lightly armored compared to the romans. That said, I think it's quite possible that when infantry lines class, the romans might be able, with sufficient numbers and determination, to break through the spear wall. They would suffer heavy losses however, even though the pilas would no doubt soften the phalanx somewhat.

But I definitely don't consider the phalanx impenetrable from the front. I think it was probably fairly common even for phalanxes that the melee combat would degenerate into a chaotic close-up fighting. Especially in phalanx-to-phalanx combat as this happened during the Renaissance when two pike squares clashed. The pikes are powerful weapons, and allowed the rear ranks to attack as well, not just the ones in the front, but even then they probably can't hold off a determined assault forever. The phalangites did carry those shortswords for a reason, after all.

Indeed. Even in good cohesion some soldiers would still manage to bipass the pike walls. After all casualties for both side are mentioned in this condition. But for one soldier who manage to do this how many would be kept in distance and attacked without the possibility to attack himself ? How long would a formation hold ground in this situation ?

Oh, and one thing.. Plutarch lived 46 AD-120 AD - He actually never saw Macedonian Phalanx, Greek Hoplites etc... he was describing things that happened 200+ years before he was born.. While he had certainly access to some texts from that time, anyway as all such works, author often adds something own, especially if he writes about his ancestors... Its like taking literally some 19.century author on 16.century combat techniques...

Lets not play this card to say whatever we want. I am still waiting any proof that heavy infantry swordsmen could block five ranks of pikes just like that to defeat a formation of pikemen.

[JaM]

Layered wood is quite strong, and Scutum was mentioned several times as being resistant to Pillum attacks - especially during Civil War, for example at Battle of Philipi, neither side used Pillum as they considered it ineffective against Roman Infantry...

Layered materials actually help to protect against penetration much better than solid material. Its their plasticity that impacts the penetrating energy and reduces its potential. its quite interested Ancient Romans and others knew this well, while in modern days it took as some really costly research to develop layered armors for tanks and armored fighting vehicles... and while modern armor works "slightly" diferently, principle is the same.

Anyway against closely packed Phalanx advancing, even those Pila that didnt hit somebody but just fell to the ground could be quite problem - if you are in tight packed formation and there are wooden shanks below your feet you can easily trip and fell.. Barage of Pila would be definitely something that is quite unpleasant to walk through...

A pilum would go straight through a scutum and kill any person behind it as well. The pilum was made primarily for penetrating board shields and not Hellenistic shields. Also remember that Hellenistic shields were often oak (or some other hardwood) covered in metal while the Roman shield was made out of an early form of plywood.

if you check that video from youtube which somebody posted here, you can actually see them throwing Pila at Scutum without any effect - funny part is, narator mentions that iron part should bend, and after he throws it at the Scutum it stays normal... no bending...

[Dan113112]

Layered wood is quite strong, and Scutum was mentioned several times as being resistant to Pillum attacks - especially during Civil War, for example at Battle of Philipi, neither side used Pillum as they considered it ineffective against Roman Infantry...

Layered materials actually help to protect against penetration much better than solid material. Its their plasticity that impacts the penetrating energy and reduces its potential. its quite interested Ancient Romans and others knew this well, while in modern days it took as some really costly research to develop layered armors for tanks and armored fighting vehicles... and while modern armor works "slightly" diferently, principle is the same.

Anyway against closely packed Phalanx advancing, even those Pila that didnt hit somebody but just fell to the ground could be quite problem - if you are in tight packed formation and there are wooden shanks below your feet you can easily trip and fell.. Barage of Pila would be definitely something that is quite unpleasant to walk through...





if you check that video from youtube which somebody posted here, you can actually see them throwing Pila at Scutum without any effect - funny part is, narator mentions that iron part should bend, and after he throws it at the Scutum it stays normal... no bending...

Interesting. I stand corrected about the scutum. I know plywood is strong and durable but I don't think it was the main reason why the scutum survived. Think about the shape of a scutum. It curves. That would help in deflecting javelins. As I said in a previous post a metal covered shield is much harder to penetrate than a board shield. You'd probably only get the first bit of the shaft along with the barbed tip into the shield. Hard to remove but probably still easier to remove than from a board shield. Because of the small shields of the pikemen it had a higher chance of just hitting the pikeman. Roman pila were probably not meant to bend. At least I don't think so. Especially if they're meant to fend off cavalry.

Yeah, it's interesting to note that most AP tank shells have a very similar principle to the pilum. I wonder if the pilum would have the same devastating effect it did on Gauls on Italic tribes with similar shield to the Romans?

[torongill]

I believe the broken and bent pila strewing the ground you're advancing on wouldn't have been exceptionally disabling - after all, the sarissa phalanx does not charge, it andvances in step. It must be used to advancing into ground littered with bodies, pools of blood and broken equipment - due to the fact that many battles involved protracted skirmishing and left the results for the main lines to travel upon.

[JaM]

It was actually Italic Tribes who were using this type of fighting before Romans. Practically, when Romans used all Hoplite force, Italian states fielded heavy infantry equipped with heavy shields and heavy javelins. Its quite hard to tell where Pillum come from, if it was from Spanish mercenaries who used heavy javelins, or it was more of Italic tribes inspiration as they also used similar javelins..

[Dan113112]

It was actually Italic Tribes who were using this type of fighting before Romans. Practically, when Romans used all Hoplite force, Italian states fielded heavy infantry equipped with heavy shields and heavy javelins. Its quite hard to tell where Pillum come from, if it was from Spanish mercenaries who used heavy javelins, or it was more of Italic tribes inspiration as they also used similar javelins..

Yeah, I know Southern Italic tribes like Samnites fought like that. I think Rome at the time did have some similarly armed infantry but usually only light infantry.

Scholars still debate about the pilum. Some say it was Italic, some say it was Iberian, and others say it was a native design unique to Romans.

I'm not sure if anyone can answer this but I've always wondered why, after suffering their first defeats at the hand of the Romans, the Greeks still continued using the phalanx. Was it pride? Was it a lack of money to train a new style of army? Even forming an army entirely of Thorakitai would have been better at Pydna or other battles. The Thorakitai would only need minor adjustments to their gear. Maybe replace the shield with a scutum and the javelin with a pilum. If they had reformed their army in times of peace instead of angering Rome or their other enemies they might have stood a chance. Just a thought.

[JaM]

Not exactly Roman Legionaries, but Spanish Rodeleros were able to break Swiss Pike Squares during Italian Wars.. They usually ducked down and got under the pikes to stab the pikemen from below... something that would definitely work with Roman Legionaries too if they tried it.. possibilities are endless...

Lets not play this card to say whatever we want.

that is not my intention, I'm just pointing out, we cannot take every word these Historians wrote as 100% accurate, and such info should be taken with the context, and not as a dogma.

[Ichon]

Not exactly Roman Legionaries, but Spanish Rodeleros were able to break Swiss Pike Squares during Italian Wars.. They usually ducked down and got under the pikes to stab the pikemen from below... something that would definitely work with Roman Legionaries too if they tried it.. possibilities are endless...

What battle did Rodeleros defeat Swiss? The best showing was Ravenna and there Rodeleros faced landsnechts not Swiss. Rodoleros were not very effective overall and soon dropped out of being trained while pikes continued more than century.