pragmatist or idealist?

**PatWest** · August 23, 2006, 12:32 PM

Civitates Only! I should think not.

Pragmatist 100%. After all who really knows what Ideal is. It seems in modern times to mean a world without suffering. Without pain and want, everyone and every nation would just be a bunch of Lotus eaters.

Whatever works, as opposed to how you think it should work, is the way to go. Thats not to mean taking the expediant path at the expense of a good long term strategy. The world works the way it does for a good reason and we shouldn't screw it up by trying to impose our own flawed ideals upon it.

**vizi** · August 23, 2006, 12:39 PM

We rose above the mire....get back down curr!

**PatWest** · August 23, 2006, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by vizigothe

We rose above the mire....get back down curr!

Curr!! .......Hmmm, I like the sound of that.

**Muizer** · August 23, 2006, 12:54 PM

Personally I believe in a mix of idealism and pragmatism. I would agree that viewing the world from a dogmatic perspective and trying to re-shape it according to often over simplified abstractions is a recipe for disaster. On the other hand, raw pragmatism tends towards giving more weight to short term certainties over long term uncertainties and as such can lead to shortsightedness. I am a fairly idealistic person in the sense that I see a discrepancy between the way things are and the way I would like them to be and I weigh this in some of the decisions I make. I am a pragmatist in the sense that I do not expect salvation from any system of belief be it religious or political.

**Sidus Preclarum** · August 23, 2006, 01:28 PM

Pragmatic enough not to be Robespierre reincarnated...

**vizi** · August 23, 2006, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sidus Preclarum

Pragmatic enough not to be Robespierre reincarnated...

Man and I had high hopes for you!

**Last Roman** · August 23, 2006, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by PatWest

Civitates Only! I should think not.

thread stealer!

Pragmatist 100%

You have no ideals?

**War Bringer** · August 23, 2006, 10:55 PM

I am a survival of the strongest type, what does that make me?

**PatWest** · August 25, 2006, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by Last Roman

thread stealer!

I like the sound of that too!

You have no ideals?

I guess it's a matter of semantics. I have many priciples but few if any Ideals. Idealists have a vision of how the world should be and use that to make decisions. Pragmatists just look at what is and make their decisions based on that. I've never really been too sure what ideal is. I think the natural world is as good a guide to what works and what doesn't.

Take religion for an example. They think saving lifes at all costs is a good Idea/ideal. Now look at what is going on in Africa. By reducing infant mortality and death by desease. By feeding them for generations what have they really accomplished. Horror and suffering on an even larger scale than before. By applying a little pragmatism they would realize that a rapidly increasing population will wreak havoc. Teaching them population control first would have achieved much better results in the long run.

Another example just hit the news in my area. Relatives of motorcycle crash victims want the public to be more aware of them. They are petitioning the goverment for more safety awareness and new laws to combat this problem. Ideally this is a laudable effort. Pragmatically this will go nowhere. You can't make people just become smarter and more observant with laws and even education. Motorcyclyists are just lower on the road food chain. I have been one at times and thats just how it is.

**TunaMaker** · August 24, 2006, 08:50 AM

I'm definitely a pragmatist.

TM

**rez** · August 25, 2006, 06:45 AM

Im a romantic Idealist all the way.

As far as i am concerned the results of your efforts are entirely irrelevant to the fact that you made the effort.

**PatWest** · August 25, 2006, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by rez

Im a romantic Idealist all the way.

As far as i am concerned the results of your efforts are entirely irrelevant to the fact that you made the effort.

Lets say you try to save someone and end up killing them. Then the paramedics arrive and say if you would have left them alone they would have lived. Does that make your point still valid.

**Ghoulem** · August 25, 2006, 07:05 AM

-Do you remember when we used to kill for change?
-Yes, we truly were idealists.. and poor.

Both I would think. I don't think pragmatism comes on the expense of idealism.

**rez** · August 25, 2006, 07:30 AM

Then that would be attributed to my ignorance rather than my ideals.

Even if i were a pragmatist i could still have been ignorant enough to attempt a rescue

**Spiff** · August 25, 2006, 07:34 AM

This seems to have the faint sound of Ethos, Mores, or indeed even Monastica about it to me, so ill nudge this thread in that general direction for now.

**PatWest** · August 25, 2006, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by rez

Then that would be attributed to my ignorance rather than my ideals.

Even if i were a pragmatist i could still have been ignorant enough to attempt a rescue

I was refferring more to the point about the result of your efforts. I'm sure the dead guy would see it differently if he could voice an opinion.

The view you hold that it's not "whether you win or lose but how you play the game" is perfectly valid when learning or training. When survival is the name of the game though, winning is everything, or results are far more important than merely trying.

Just because I'm a pragmatist doesn't mean I think everyone should be one though. The world needs both vision and accomplishment.

I think the main difference between a pragmatist and an idealist is they both would have hooked Terry Schiavo up to the feeding tube, but the pragmatist believes their is a point it becomes hopeless and an idealist thinks not. Or maybe thats just my view.

:hmmm:

**rez** · August 25, 2006, 11:59 AM

Were i the dead person i would not begrudge the person who attempted to save my life.

Were i the attempted life saver i do not believe i could avoid immense guilt, however i would console myself with the thought of right action intended. But you must understand i am a guilty person by nature so it would not be the idealism that made me feel bad.

I understand what you mean and i agree the world needs both, without one or the other we would either stagnate or tumble headlong into oblivion