Why are big companies moving away from modding?

[HigoChumbo]

So, the last years are seeing how most big developers (or publishers?) are not only avoiding to release modding tools (or even simple map editors) but also making it more and more difficult for modders to penetrate the inner structure of the game. Even some companies which have seen mods increasing the sucess and durability of their games, like Dice, Blizzard or CA, have suddenly closed their doors to modders' work.


I thought that it would be interesting if we tryed to pin-point which are the real causes for this (because i honestly don't know in the first place) to try to find some possible solutions that could make everyone (the companies and the players) happy.




To be honest i don't know if it is to avoid piracy/hacking (letting anyone to mess easily with the game code can prepare the ground for the proliferation of both multiplayer hacks/cheats and game cracks)... or maybe because the mods suppose a threat to the game sales or even to the company image by comparing their "professional" product with the fan-made one.

For instance, maybe someone who has been playing vanilla Rome till now would probably fall into the hype about buying Rome 2 much easier than someone who has played EB or RS2. It could even get to the point that an older mod of the previous game was actually better than the newer official sequel (for instance, im pretty positive that the Blizkrieg mod for Company of Heroes is going to be superior in many aspects to CoH2, and the Eastern Front mod is probably very, very similar with fewer features). Both cases would, to an higher or lesser extent, hinder the new game sales.


What do you guys think?

[Stívarðr Reynitré]

Cynically, I believe the problem we have here is the belief by CA that the modding community will extend the lifespan of a release beyond 'expected' time periods and thus lessening (in their opinion) the demand for an update of the series.

Now, we could argue that, in being able to mod these games, we are interesting communities outside of Total War who find the idea of playing Third Age or Warhammer or American Civil War intriguing and will therefore buy the game to play, thus creating greater demand.

Now, I can see both points, but I think CA are beginning to put a lot of people off by being (seemingly) so reluctant to give modders any opportunity...

[complete noob:(]

My view on it is that modding completely eliminates DLCs (for the most part). DLCs are often things that could, theoretically, simply be modded in, so if this modding is easily done, then the company loses the sale on the DLC.

[Stívarðr Reynitré]

My view on it is that modding completely eliminates DLCs (for the most part). DLCs are often things that could, theoretically, simply be modded in, so if this modding is easily done, then the company loses the sale on the DLC.

That too...alongside my own comments.

In the end, it's all about milking a cash cow until the next one comes to the barn. Modders would rather keep the old cow around and spruce her up from time to time.

Companies would rather slaughter her, sell little titbits and move on and bring the next one into the barn.


I like my cow analogy.

[HigoChumbo]

Cynically, I believe the problem we have here is the belief by CA that the modding community will extend the lifespan of a release beyond 'expected' time periods and thus lessening (in their opinion) the demand for an update of the series.

To me it sounds as an unrealistic expectation even before writing it... but since many mods actually aim not to just improving the vanilla game, but to provide a different gameplay experience (in some cases game designs that we know CA will never release, like a niche very realistic and slow mod aimed at a small part of the playerbase)... wouldn't it be possible if they actually "hired" the best modders (or hired their ownd developers) to make those very specific expansion and actually profited from it by selling them as dlcs? (before any of you say "i don't want to pay for a mod", I say... i'd rather pay for a good mod than for the average dlc we get, and specially, i would rather pay for a mod than for no mod at all).

This would not solve the case of some fantasy mods like Third Age (because it would be illegal if they profited from it, because of the LotR license), but could bring us a lot of different experiences even with better production values and even deeper tech support.

Now, we could argue that, in being able to mod these games, we are interesting communities outside of Total War who find the idea of playing Third Age or Warhammer or American Civil War intriguing and will therefore buy the game to play, thus creating greater demand.

Well, it is not even an hypothetical case. Just look what DayZ has done to Arma2 sales (that is the good thing... the bad thing is that now vanilla Arma 2 servers, which previously were populated by mature players, are now filled with jerks). There is also a lot of people who have bought Half-life 2 because of Black Mesa or Garry's Mod, BF2 because of Project Reality or Forgotten Hope2, Company of Heroes because Blitzkrieg Mod, Medieval 2 because of Third Age or Warcraft 3 because of Dota (even when i believe piracy took a big chunk of the players here).

My view on it is that modding completely eliminates DLCs (for the most part). DLCs are often things that could, theoretically, simply be modded in, so if this modding is easily done, then the company loses the sale on the DLC.

Same as above. Then, what stops them from developing what we want for mods and selling them as dlcs? If they don't want to give a different image to the company, they could always rely on subsidiary studies.

I don't know, there is definatelly a demand for such products (the mods), if money is the problem, i don't get why don't they make them themselves and sell them as separately.

I like my cow analogy.

I find outrageous that you left vegetarians out of it.

(Actually, now that i picture it, it's not even a random quote, think of vegetarians as those players who just want to see the spruced cows grazing peacefully in the countryside from time to time and don't care at all about the meat that slaugherhouses keep trying to sell to them).

Hey.. i also like my cow analogy

[Rijul.J.Ballal]

I do feel you are a little harsh on CA, It is possible to draw satisfaction from any of their games,even empire had a lot of admirers even when it was easier to find bugs than the actual game. Unlike some other companies that come to mind cough cough EA cough cough. But people are harsh when it come to EA too, they may make ****** games but are they really worse than GM,banks and certain oil companies that made the news some time ago[i refer to a recent poll s=placing them to be the worst company of the year.]

[Stívarðr Reynitré]

I love CA...I'm genuinely a blinkered fanboy and have no shame in admitting that. I wish I could spend all day at their studios, just chatting away to them and picking their brains. I think they are an incredible company.

I just wish they would be a little more open to ideas as they were in the early days.

But my love for them will never dwindle!

[Ussaid the Hashshashin]

The only problem is the DLCs, it is just like the Mount and Blade DLC prob. When Taleworlds released the Napoleonic Wars DLC, there was already a "Mount and Musket" mod which focused on the same period, so people would rather play the FREE MOD then BUY THE DLC. I have nothing against Taleworlds, and I admit that it is one of the most modding tolerating companies.

And hiring modders as company workers? Seriously man! The people who work in The Creative Assembly are PROFESSIONALS! Their lives and careers are dedicated to Games! They put everything they have in a single project. And what are modders? Guys who would just skin a few units or customize the map a bit on a boring weekend? YES! They are not every advance and still, gaming is a sideline to their lives. They have their own careers. They don't know the real depth about gaming programming, and if they want, they can always turn back while a CA worker earn their food and shelter with these games! It would merely be a insult to their skills if modders would be given more importance over them, the more experienced and professional. Again I have nothing against modders, as I am one myself, and I agree that there ARE some modders who are very skilled. But then, a lower leveled CA worker might level him with skills and here experience is everything. You will KNOW what that error means.

Hope you understand And If I somehow have insulted anyone above, then I ask for your apologies.

~Ussaid

[Freelancer Tex]

The only problem is the DLCs, it is just like the Mount and Blade DLC prob. When Taleworlds released the Napoleonic Wars DLC, there was already a "Mount and Musket" mod which focused on the same period,

Napoleonic Wars is based off Mount&Musket, and was, and still is, a huge success in term of numbers. Lot of people who enjoyed MM in the past (like me) bought NW and are totally fine with the moneys spent.
But often, it is not. That's why this dilemma even exist. And that's why developers are not worth to take any risk.

[AngryTitusPullo]

The only problem is the DLCs, it is just like the Mount and Blade DLC prob. When Taleworlds released the Napoleonic Wars DLC, there was already a "Mount and Musket" mod which focused on the same period, so people would rather play the FREE MOD then BUY THE DLC. I have nothing against Taleworlds, and I admit that it is one of the most modding tolerating companies.

And hiring modders as company workers? Seriously man! The people who work in The Creative Assembly are PROFESSIONALS! Their lives and careers are dedicated to Games! They put everything they have in a single project. And what are modders? Guys who would just skin a few units or customize the map a bit on a boring weekend? YES! They are not every advance and still, gaming is a sideline to their lives. They have their own careers. They don't know the real depth about gaming programming, and if they want, they can always turn back while a CA worker earn their food and shelter with these games! It would merely be a insult to their skills if modders would be given more importance over them, the more experienced and professional. Again I have nothing against modders, as I am one myself, and I agree that there ARE some modders who are very skilled. But then, a lower leveled CA worker might level him with skills and here experience is everything. You will KNOW what that error means.

Hope you understand And If I somehow have insulted anyone above, then I ask for your apologies.

~Ussaid

Well I believe many people employed by CA especially in coding/graphics are started modding games themselves in the beginning. Jack Lusted is the only one Total War modder that I know of but there are few other devs who mods other games before they are being employed.

[Ciciro]

The only problem is the DLCs, it is just like the Mount and Blade DLC prob. When Taleworlds released the Napoleonic Wars DLC, there was already a "Mount and Musket" mod which focused on the same period, so people would rather play the FREE MOD then BUY THE DLC. I have nothing against Taleworlds, and I admit that it is one of the most modding tolerating companies.

You do know Naopleonic Wars was made by the same people who made Mount and Musket? Anyway, Paradox doesn't seem to have a problem with dlcs and mods, so I don't see why CA should be any different.

[ptoss1]

More profit - DLCs.
Less competition.
Everybody knows what happened with Dota.

[The Despondent Mind]

I just don't get it why don't they release modding tools,patches etc. for games that are not "current" anymore .
That could only slightly increase sales , or maybe even higher if some really huge mods with attractive overall themes start emerging ,like TATW or Gary's Mod .

[beacon44]

Due to lack system of modding. As well as due to Dota

[Rhio]

I think it's a bit paranoid to believe companies are against mods. Overall, an active modding community is beneficial to a game and they are appreciated by the game developpers. However, making a game that is fully modable isn't easy. In general, hard-coding is the a lot less time-consuming than soft-coding and thus less expensive. Yet, as many modders will tell you, the more hard-coded content a game has, the less modable it is.

[AngryTitusPullo]

I think it's a bit paranoid to believe companies are against mods. Overall, an active modding community is beneficial to a game and they are appreciated by the game developpers. However, making a game that is fully modable isn't easy. In general, hard-coding is the a lot less time-consuming than soft-coding and thus less expensive. Yet, as many modders will tell you, the more hard-coded content a game has, the less modable it is.

From what I have seen since RTW until Shogun 2, CA has released more and more things to be modable. Many things that were hardcoded (or probably did not exist) in RTW is now available in Shogun 2. I'm sure that this trend will continue in Rome II.

What the community needs now is more modders, not just more more users.

[Ussaid the Hashshashin]

I think that CA is one of the companies that tolerate modding.
After all, they do have released modding tools for Shogun 2, and we cant modify it without them because it is just so advance...

I think they will do the same for R2TW.

[Ishan]

I think that CA is one of the companies that tolerate modding.
After all, they do have released modding tools for Shogun 2, and we cant modify it without them because it is just so advance...

I think they will do the same for R2TW.

They should learn something from Bethesda.

[magpie]

I think as has been stated more or less,
Today its about fast turnover, Develop release and cash in. Move on to the next round.
As companies get bigger the pressure mounts. Staff have to be paid, Shareholder,s kept happy etc.
It all gets a little more impersonal.

[Ussaid the Hashshashin]

I know people bought NW, including my self, but it was because of the fact that it was actually offering us new features, and not just new units. CA is just moving in that direction because as age advances, modding becomes more complicated.