Who died during your first playthrough of the suicide mission of Mass Effect 2?

[Captain Jin]

I remember playing through it thinking I was doing quite well. Then Garrus died after leading the attack team. I can't remember who else died. Just Garrus, I think. Maybe Mordin too.

How the hell did Garrus die leading a team for you??

[goro]

I lost Mordin first time although in my opinion the people i chose were perfect for the job.Every time i replay it now i just look at a guide and don't bother to search the reason for their options

[The Dude]

How the hell did Garrus die leading a team for you??

I honestly have no idea haha. Maybe I didn't have his loyalty?

[Sharpe]

YOU. DIDN'T. HAVE. GARRUS'. LOYALTY?

[The Dude]

Yeah I never cared a lot for Garrus. Remember I had only played ME1 up to this point, and in ME1 I never found him to be particularly fascinating. I was far more taken in with ME2's new teammates, Legion and Zaeed in particular.

[Razvus]

I sometimes wonder why I like some of these characters. Garrus for example, I liked when I met him in ME3, but I'm starting to think it's not really because of his personality as much as it is from... being stuck with him since the first game. No matter what I said to him didn't mater in ME1 since he goes rogue anyway, and then ho goes to daddy regardless of his personal quest in ME2. I guess his character progress is marked only by the appearance of his jokes. I don't know why the hell did I romance this guy.

"Being familiar" is a common trait for most characters in my opinion. I think EDI, Mordin and Legion are the only real characters in these games since they're the only ones really progressing. Legion finds his soul, Mordin his forgiveness, and EDI her tin-man heart. The rest change, but they're really not that impressive. In ME3 it hit me that Tali was a squad member since the first game, I haven't really been interested in this character despite the huge amount of fans she has. Is it the mask?

[Captain Jin]

Garrus is the ultimate bro. He's basically meant to be Shepard's best friend. And he grows as a character. He goes from being a C-Sec officer to sort of taking the protege approach with Shepard, then runs his own team on Omega, joins back up with Shepard for another adventure and then we last see him organizing turian military capabilities and basically acting as a major officer that has some serious pull when it comes to troop movements and credibility with his government. That's a pretty big change from an obscure C-Sec officer. Jack certainly changes quite a bit from ME2 to ME3 as well. Jacob essentially becomes a family man. Miranda hasn't changed much but whatevsss. Then you got Liara who is obviously quite different from how she was in ME1 by the time ME3 comes along. I mean there's tons of growth and change in a lot of the characters. I'm not sure what you're saying.

[Razvus]

I know every character goes through some changes, but some aren't that impressive. Yea, Garrus does different things and I'm glad his CV is getting better and better. But as you said, he's the ultimate bro and this is his sole purpose, he was created to be your bro. It's hard not to like him when he's created specifically for this, and I don't feel like I did anything special to win him as my bro.

Jacob? I find him to be the worse. He's just some guy, he complains about the IM, he then finds his dad, and then that's that. Him turning family isn't that surprising. It's not like before his mission you would've thought "this man will never start a family". It wasn't that surprising, and it's not really a character change. it's just something different that he's doing, just like Garrus changing the merc killing business for reaper advising.

Yeah, Jack goes through some changes, but she's so predictable. Ever since I saw her in ME2's trailer I was wondering when do you turn her into a happy girl. The answer was ME3.

Liara has a switch that gets turned on between games and she becomes this tough and ruthless... information broker. How do you go from grave-digging to information stealing? That's what I was asking myself, and I know there are some comics to answer this but I'm not really a fan o reading outside literature in order to understand events in a game. If her mother's death would've had a bigger impact I would've been impressed with this character, maybe her holding a bit of a grudge against you for killing her? However this clearly had little impact on her and it's mostly the comic adventures that changed her, and that was for me, off screen.

Also, I'll add at the head of this list one other character: Shepard. The whole series you do nothing other than following orders, killing and being cool. And that's not really character development. You die and you comeback after a 2 year coma as if you were all night playing Bingo. There's no second guessing of any sort like "hey, I'm half cyborg here. Why the hell am I still fighting everyone?". Only in the final game we get some weird dream sequences with that kid, and that's suppose to explain the pressure Shepard is on. And a little bit of wear and tear about losing a fight with katana-guy and occasionally you need a hand from your crew. Joker straight out yells at you that you're half machine and I was expecting Shepard to vent a little as well. But no, she was just a good gal. The biggest character trait is that you can't dance. Up to the final moments of the battle, that's what Shepard is, a good little drone that follows orders no matter what. After all those fights on all those planets, I'm being sent in the middle of if on Earth just because every one else sucks? Hey Andersone, how about no? Send in the krogan, and leave me gathering my breath a little, okay? No. Even when you're bleeding to death and Hackett calls Shepard is all "Yeah, what do you need?". This is the most disappointing character for me, and that's weird because I like playing as Shepard at first glance. It's just looking at these details that makes me sad in the end.

also, I don't know what I'm really saying, I'm just talking out loud trying to figure these characters out.

[Praefectus praetorio]

Shepard is part of the military. He/she is supposed to follow orders. Besides its the galaxy that is at stake. Reapers are about to destroy all civilizations in the galaxy and Earth is under attack. Why he/she would just say no in the middle of most important battle of the war. You are fighting for your home after all. But he/she does not do that always. You don't have to do the side missions Hackett gives you. In ME1 you steal the Normandy, In ME2 you can go against Illusive mans orders and spare the Collector base. In ME3 again you don't have to do the side quests. But these will have consequenses.

I don't really agree that you do nothing but follow orders. Might as well say that you do nothing but shoot stuff, say something, fly elsewhere and shoot some more.

[Sharpe]

I loved Zaeed. It was so weird to have someone with a strong Londoner accent, much like my own, gallivanting around the galaxy with you. He and Garrus were my boys.

[Razvus]

Shepard is part of the military.

C'mon, it's a sci-fi with plenty of space magic... you can't go all technical on me. And I didn't wish Shepard would refuse an order, I was just thinking you'd earn a break after all of it. And you're not just a soldier, you're a Spectre and you're also the only living reason the galaxy is still standing, by reuniting most of all intelligent life under one banner. You solved a thousand-year feud between the krogan, salarians and turians, you died only to come back kicking, you had to endure a refusing Council for years and you also earned the right to inscribe on all the moons of the galaxy the words "I told you so, signed Shepard" for all to see. You're no ordinary soldier. I think I deserve the right to some perks, and while we're here, who's Hackett to give the big speech to the fleet? All the races were probably wondering who's this guy. he totally stole my thunder.

Did I mention the two reapers that you kill personally? All I'm saying is that by the end Shepard feels just like another gear, saluting nicely and being a total tool. I'm not being mean here, I'm just saying what I felt at that moment. I felt like they were sending me to be the first guy on D-Day in Normandy, the first to be shot on the beach. It's like they were all thinking "well you died once, might as well send you down there. You're the only one that can... arm a missile."

This is what I felt when I was playing it, I loved the game, I was looking up to a big fight but these things bothered me. I united the galaxy and in the end I was treated as a tool. Only gave a speech to my small squad.

[goro]

Shepard is not a tool.The reapers are going to destroy his world and his chances of survival are close to 0.He is the man of the hour.He followed orders from Anderson and the admiral.Both of them are superiors and know what they are doing.Being part of the military means having discipline.If everyone would do what they thought best then everything would go to hell.One quote fits perfectly here: "we are here to defend democracy not practice it"

[Praefectus praetorio]

Perhaps I misunderstood your post but I don't think Shepard does this for credit or to be famous or something... Yeah, you did lot's of things but this is not about Shepard, it's about the galaxy. Why would Shepard refuse orders and leave everyone alone in Earth. Those soldiers need Shepard and you are their only hope. Yes, I agree Shepard definitely would earn a break but would he/she want it? The galaxy is at war and Reapers don't take breaks. Every minute Shepard wastes increases the odds that Reapers win. Besides as I said he is in the military. You are expected to follow orders. Hackett is your superior, it is not you who decide what to do. I don't understand what space magic has to do with this. And doesn't Shepard and his team also figure a lot by themselves? They don't always just go where the Alliance tells them to go.

Also in the Citadel DLC you do take a break and have a party with your squad.

[Sharpe]

Also in the Citadel DLC you do take a break and have a party with your squad.

On ME2 I always, always found time to partay



Funniest thing, just could not resist going into the bars haha.

The galaxy can wait! This is my tune!

[The Dude]

C'mon, it's a sci-fi with plenty of space magic... you can't go all technical on me. And I didn't wish Shepard would refuse an order, I was just thinking you'd earn a break after all of it. And you're not just a soldier, you're a Spectre and you're also the only living reason the galaxy is still standing, by reuniting most of all intelligent life under one banner. You solved a thousand-year feud between the krogan, salarians and turians, you died only to come back kicking, you had to endure a refusing Council for years and you also earned the right to inscribe on all the moons of the galaxy the words "I told you so, signed Shepard" for all to see. You're no ordinary soldier. I think I deserve the right to some perks, and while we're here, who's Hackett to give the big speech to the fleet? All the races were probably wondering who's this guy. he totally stole my thunder.

Did I mention the two reapers that you kill personally? All I'm saying is that by the end Shepard feels just like another gear, saluting nicely and being a total tool. I'm not being mean here, I'm just saying what I felt at that moment. I felt like they were sending me to be the first guy on D-Day in Normandy, the first to be shot on the beach. It's like they were all thinking "well you died once, might as well send you down there. You're the only one that can... arm a missile."

This is what I felt when I was playing it, I loved the game, I was looking up to a big fight but these things bothered me. I united the galaxy and in the end I was treated as a tool. Only gave a speech to my small squad.

I completely agree with the order taking thing. To make matters worse it's the Spacekid who gives the final order: "Pick a colour or die." No agency. Just do what you're told. Doesn't matter if it's a cosmic robosquid RP'ing a kid or hologram Anderson.

@ Jin:

I'm reminded of the Plinkett review of the Phantom Menace where he asks four different people to describe the characters in the movie by personality traits only. So don't describe what they do or what they look like, because that's not the same. Turns out it's a lot easier to do for the sequels than the prequels. Han Solo; a rogue privateer out for his own gain, who at the end finds he has compassion after all. Leia, a spoiled upper class child who nevertheless sides with the underdog rebels and helps them fight the Empire. Luke; a farmboy who at first wants to be no more than a number in the Empire but redefines himself when he discovers he's meant for greater stuff. Now try the same for Qui Gon. For Jar Jar. For Amidala. Who are these people? They have no character traits. Amidala's... the queen. Qui Gon's the mentor. Jar Jar's the comic relief. They don't grow past the tropes that inspired them.

The same exercise is useful for Mass Effect. You'll find that some characters have depth, others are fairly shallow. It depends on who wrote them. Broseph Vakarian isn't really a person, when it comes down to it. And I'll concede that writing strong, convincing characters is difficult, so I'm not really blaming Walters for not getting this right since ME1 was his first gig as a writer. But there's no real growth over the series. Name one trait that makes Garrus stand out. He's suave? Is that it? How about if I put him in a situation: say Shepard were to order him to blow up a building full of Reapers while there were also some innocent civilians still in it. Would he? Is he a utilitarian like that? Or would he decline out of moral reasons? Because I see him doing either and therefore I don't really know. I know that Luke wouldn't do it. Han wouldn't do it, though he might consider it. Leia wouldn't do it. Lando Calrissian would do it if it suited him. Vader would do it to prove to himself that he's still on the dark side, which he needs to keep reaffirming only because he knows he isn't really.

Another one. Would Garrus invest his entire personal fortune if it meant building defenses more likely to keep a village safe? Because Han Solo wouldn't and Luke Skywalker would do it yesterday. Arya Stark would do it, but Joffrey Baratheon would invest his fortune to make sure the village died. Or perhaps he would set up a terrace from which to view the carnage while wine was being poured for his fancy guests. Sansa wouldn't and would afterwards try and justify it because she can't let go of the idea that she isn't a moral person. Tyrion would do it, as probably the only Lannister.

Well, the point is made. Strong characters can be placed into hypothetical scenarios reliably. Out of the entire Mass Effect cast I feel like I could do this with Zaeed, Samara, Thane and Legion. Maybe James, who I thought was a far better bro than Garrus. I'll wager a guess and say that out of the five I mentioned at most one would've been written by the same writer as Garrus was.

[Sharpe]

Name one trait that makes Garrus stand out.

Jokes.

For me it was the vigilante standpoint. When fighting crime on Omega it was the whole "I may just be a bump in the road, but I'm going to be a hell of a big bump" He was fighting the good fight.

Plus he would stand by you through thick and thin with less than a complaint.

[The Edain]

Can't remember who exactly I lost first time through. I think it was Tali, Mordin, Zaeed and Legion...or Thane. I can't remember. I just know it turned into a massive cluster****

[Darth Red]

I really liked Garrus' loyalty mission, especially as a Paragon. I mean you would get his loyalty as a Renegade too but the talking him out of murdering his old squad mate and his initial reaction of being pissed at you (he could have blown my head off!) then understanding that it was the right call in the end... IDK, I enjoyed that whole sequence more than anything with him. Well that and the whole broseph thing he and Shep had going on. I remember touching on this in convo's with Garrus in ME1 as well, telling him that the most expedient choices aren't always the best choices, so it seemed to tie in nicely. Same with Miranda's loyalty mission, I liked hers better as a Paragon and talking her out of murdering her friend that betrayed her then encouraging her to go talk to her sister rather than letting her be the hardened ice princess that she came off as.

As far as Liara getting hardened in the second one, I did find it a bit odd myself, but for my own RP of it, I romanced her as a Renegade in the first one so it fit for me in that sense. I like to think she picked up a few bad habits from me. hehe

[Razvus]

Why would Shepard refuse orders and leave everyone alone in Earth.

You guys don't really understand me. I'm not saying Shepard should refuse, I'm saying he/she should be put to better use, not just the grunt work. It felt cheap. Obviously I'm not expecting to sit on the sideline, I just said I was expecting a big battle, didn't I? Please understand, I don't feel like out of the entire attacking force, Shepard was the only capable intelligent being that could hold those missiles and arm them. That's why I said it felt like D-Day. I wanted the fight to be a little more meaningful, how about a showdown with Harbinger? I could probably fight him like I did with Sovereign and it will be a hell of a lot more meaningful than just... charge the beam.

...

And Mark Meer is nothing compared to Jennifer Hale, man I'm glad you're still around.

I liked that part of the Plinkett review, and I think it should be used as a template for a lot of characters. Another proof that Garrus is tailored to be you bro is that he never truly criticized you on your actions... no matter the outcome. If you're paragon, he won't complain that I did the weak thing, and if I renegade it he'll always back me up. In ME1 he probably complained at first but would always see good reason in the end. Like the good boy that he is. Killing Mordin? He's fine with it. Wrex? No problem. Saving everyone as paragon? GG Shepard. If we're looking for a trait on him, it probably is that of an asskisser. I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the idea. He's made that way.

Jokes.

For me it was the vigilante standpoint. When fighting crime on Omega it was the whole "I may just be a bump in the road, but I'm going to be a hell of a big bump" He was fighting the good fight.

Plus he would stand by you through thick and thin with less than a complaint.

We already have Joker, and you already have Tali, Joker and even Chakwas that are standing beside you. From day one. And also fighting the good fight... that's pretty much every turian out there.

I remember touching on this in convo's with Garrus in ME1 as well, telling him that the most expedient choices aren't always the best choices, so it seemed to tie in nicely.

It's true that they tie nicely, but it still proves that you had 0 impact on him no matter what you said to him.

[Captain Jin]

@ The Dude, I can see what you're saying but you're missing one key component to your argument-- Shepard. The characters indeed have depth in spades depending on which character that is but consider that some character will make major choices based on Shepard's influence over them. That's a major focal point of the story, that Shepard has such an influence he can affect the way they develop as a character. Such as the example that Darth Red gave-- either Garrus kills his old teammate or Shepard convinces him not to. I think it's easy to classify Garrus as a young turian that struggles with how far to take things in order to get results and the way that Shepard interacts with him helps to flesh that out more. For instance Garrus talks the ruthless calculus of war and killing 10 billion in one place to save 20 billion in another. He understands and even respects the Reapers as an enemy because of the way they turn their own kind against them which also causes issues psychologically.