The Battle of the Bastards (Spoilers all books)

[ButtSwag]

So, let's say Mel revives Jon and he decides to go South. Who do you think will win out of Jon and Ramsay, in both single combat and commanding armies. I think most people will say Jon in single combat, but I for some readon think Ramsay would have a chance. Jon would out-command him though. He was raised similarly to Robb, and Robb was a good commander.

EDIT: Actually, I think Jon would out do him in both, i think it's stated that Ramsay is a bad fighter.

[SoulGamesInc]

Jon would destroy Ramsay in single combat. "Ramsay, though savage in battle, was never officially taught at arms. His tutor in martial prowess was Reek, his serving man, who had never received any sword training himself. Ramsay's swordsmanship style is vicious and highly aggressive, wielding his sword as if it were a butcher's cleaver."

Jon is also a far better commander than Ramsay, with a LOT more experience.

[Riverknight]

Robb was a good commander because of his advisor's. Jon Snow won't have advisors. In single combat Ramsay would be destroyed, but I think it would be a good battle on the field.

Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk 2

[SoulGamesInc]

Robb was a good commander because of his advisor's.

Robb was a good commander because he was a skilled leader and warrior as he proved time and time again with his many victory's against enemy's with twice his experience that underestimated him. He was not a good commander simply because he had "advisers". Jon Snow is just as skilled a warrior as Robb if not more so due to his experiences at The Wall and beyond where he was proven himself to be a very capable leader. (Honor is a Starks greatest weakness)

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of "advisers" from. His bannermen on his war council would give him advise but in the end he was king and his word was final.

[Websy]

I don't think Roose would abandon Ramsay though, he wouldn't want his entire house to fall to one unborn child. If he's backing his bastard I wouldn't fancy Jon's chances.

[Riverknight]

Eh, I don't think Robb was a great commander, he had battle proven advisors and did not had very powerful enemies. Jaime Lannister was stubborn and reckless and Staford Lannister was a terrible leader. The Crag was undefended and the only real enemy he had that he had was Tywin who never faced him in the open field. Jon's only great command was holding the wall.... a 700 hundred foot wall from an army of undisciplined Wildlings. Without Stannis he would have been defeated.

Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk 2

[SoulGamesInc]

Eh, I don't think Robb was a great commander, he had battle proven advisors and did not had very powerful enemies.

Robb had highly skilled enemy's with far more experience than him not to mention resources. Jaime Lannister destroyed the defensive forces of 4,000 men under the command of Lord Vance at the Battle of the Golden Tooth later at the Battle of RiverrunJaime won another victory and captured Edmure Tully. At the Battle at the Mummer's Ford Jaime crushed Lord Beric Dondarrion's force. Meanwhile Tywin Lannister leads an army of 20,000 men north from the Golden Road to travel across the Trident conquering several of the Riverlord’s holdfasts. At the Battle of the Green Fork Robb outwitted Tywin by sending 16,000 footmen as a diversion, he later prepares a trap, taking Jaime by surprise and capturing him in the Whispering Wood, outsmarting somebody far older and more experience than himself, at the Battle of the Camps Robb once agains show's his skills as a military commander and utterly destroys the Lannister siege.

he was not good at commanding during battles. It's true, he never really faced anyone in an open field where he didn't have time to go over a perfect plan (such as the whispering woods)

He rode into all of the battles alongside his men, a part of being a good commander is being smart, and the only time somebody would not have time to go over a plan would be an ambush. (being outsmarted by your enemy)

In a battle, it's a bad sign if you are forced to plan on the spot. It means that the situation is in some way turned against you. A perfect plan, executed well, while less glamorous than a desperate,quickly-thought plan can be just as efficient.

^ Perfectly well said, every battle has a tactical plan and it takes a good commander to execute such plans.

Robb's next major battle was against Stafford Lannister and his recruit army, no great feat, if the army was under Staffords son Devan the outcome would have been much different as Devan actually knew how to command. Also Brynden won that battle by leading the Van.


Jon Snow would have almost no battle experience besides throwing Rock's off a massive wall.


Compared to Ramsay who did defeat (even though it was a surprise) an army five times larger than his own.

Robb crushed Stafford Lannister because he made the stupid mistake of thinking himself safe in their own lands and he did not bother to set enough scouts, thos proved his downfall as during the night Robb sent his vanguard, led by Brynden Tully, to kill the few sentries and then Robb attacked with the main army. The battle was more a rout then a real encounter as the untrained and surprised Lannister army could not put up much resistance. (The Lannister host was weak and untrained, no matter who the commander they would have lost the battle and the only change would be the number of casualties)

Jon Snow was trained alongside Robb in the art of combat, he also have the experience from being beyond the wall that gives me a more hardened view than Robb ever had. He proves his tactical ability holding The Wall and keeping his men in line, also when advising Stannis Baratheon to attack Deepwood Motte rather than The Dreadfort and he advised him to go through the mountains and win the support of the mountain clans, greatly aiding Stannis in his cause. Jon has become a true leader. Ramsay Snow is a mad child with a meat clever whos only real combat experience is attacking a small and very confused force of Stark Loyalists outside Winterfell as the castellan offers him his hand in friendship, however, Ramsay slices Cassel's arm off and his forces go in a rampage through the stunned Northmen's ranks, that were nowhere near 3x the size of Boltons army.

Now back to the topic of the thread me thinks?
Jon Snow wins.

[ButtSwag]

I think what you're arguing Soul, is that Robb was a good strategist. he came up with great ideas on how to beat the Lannisters.
Where as Knight of Rivers is saying he was not good at commanding during battles. It's true, he never really faced anyone in an open field where he didn't have time to go over a perfect plan (such as the whispering woods)

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I think what you're arguing Soul, is that Robb was a good strategist. he came up with great ideas on how to beat the Lannisters.
Where as Knight of Rivers is saying he was not good at commanding during battles. It's true, he never really faced anyone in an open field where he didn't have time to go over a perfect plan (such as the whispering woods)

In a battle, it's a bad sign if you are forced to plan on the spot. It means that the situation is in some way turned against you. A perfect plan, executed well, while less glamorous than a desperate,quickly-thought plan can be just as efficient.

[Deska140]

Jon would definitely beat Ramsay in duel, but I'm not sure who would have won in commanding armies.

Anyway, when I saw the name of this thread, I thought that we will vote on who is the best bastard in Westeros...

[Charerg]

Eh, I'd say that Robb Stark was one of the best tacticians of the war (he never lost a battle, unlike Tywin...who was defeated by Edmure Tully at the Red Fork). If we go by the definition that the aim of tactics is to win a battle whereas the aim of strategy is to win wars.

And Tywin's leadership wasn't tactically as brilliant as Robb's. Tywin won his battles largely because he had the larger and better trained/equipped force. He was more of a cautious commander who wouldn't commit to battle unless he knew he had the advantage.

Robb, on the other hand, was more of a daring, risk-taking commander. He managed to defeat Jaime's 15 000 men with just 5 000, using surprise and night attacks to full advantage. And Jaime Lannister was hardly an incompetent commander.

[megells]

Jon would **** on Ramsay in single combat and I believe that Ramsay's order of battle would be "send forth all legions!!!!" (anyone who gets the quote gets some rep their way)
Jon would have actual tactics in contrast not to mention if the son of Ned Stark is against them the Manderlys and the other Northmen would no doubt turn against Ramsay and be glad to see Jon take his head
It turns out that TKOFT was the first to get my reference... unfortunately I have no idea who TKOFT is.... this is a predicament

[The Guy With No Imagination]

LotR reference much?

[Riverknight]

Eh, I'd say that Robb Stark was one of the best tacticians of the war (he never lost a battle, unlike Tywin...who was defeated by Edmure Tully at the Red Fork). If we go by the definition that the aim of tactics is to win a battle whereas the aim of strategy is to win wars.

And Tywin's leadership wasn't tactically as brilliant as Robb's. Tywin won his battles largely because he had the larger and better trained/equipped force. He was more of a cautious commander who wouldn't commit to battle unless he knew he had the advantage.

Robb, on the other hand, was more of a daring, risk-taking commander. He managed to defeat Jaime's 15 000 men with just 5 000, using surprise and night attacks to full advantage. And Jaime Lannister was hardly an incompetent commander.

Tywin did not "lose" at the red fork it was not an open field battle like the Whispering woods. Tywin had to try and cross a River with enemy Bowman, Scorpions and troops on the other side, it was a death trap.
Again Like I say, Robb faced Jaime who thought Robb's cavalry was actually Marq Piper and his raiding men, so he charged him with the few hundred Cavalry soldiers he had, therefore entering the wood's and being trapped. After his capture Robb attacked his full army at the Battle of Camps. The Battle of Camps was more of a slaughter, Robb already captured most of the Lannister commanders at the whispering woods and the Lannister host soon broke. Robb's next major battle was against Stafford Lannister and his recruit army, no great feat, if the army was under Staffords son Devan the outcome would have been much different as Devan actually knew how to command. Also Brynden won that battle by leading the Van.

Jon Snow would have almost no battle experience besides throwing Rock's off a massive wall.

Compared to Ramsay who did defeat (even though it was a surprise) an army five times larger than his own.

[Charerg]

Tywin did not "lose" at the red fork it was not an open field battle like the Whispering woods. Tywin had to try and cross a River with enemy Bowman, Scorpions and troops on the other side, it was a death trap.
Again Like I say, Robb faced Jaime who thought Robb's cavalry was actually Marq Piper and his raiding men, so he charged him with the few hundred Cavalry soldiers he had, therefore entering the wood's and being trapped. After his capture Robb attacked his full army at the Battle of Camps. The Battle of Camps was more of a slaughter, Robb already captured most of the Lannister commanders at the whispering woods and the Lannister host soon broke. Robb's next major battle was against Stafford Lannister and his recruit army, no great feat, if the army was under Staffords son Devan the outcome would have been much different as Devan actually knew how to command. Also Brynden won that battle by leading the Van.

Jon Snow would have almost no battle experience besides throwing Rock's off a massive wall.

Compared to Ramsay who did defeat (even though it was a surprise) an army five times larger than his own.

Jaime had 3/4 of his horse at Whispering Wood, not a few hundred. Quote from book:"Others came behind him, long columns of them, knights and sworn swords and freeriders, three quarters of the Lannister horse." This would mean at least 1500 men (Jaime having 2k-3k cavalry total).

As to Oxcross, I think Robb showed great ability by taking the Lannister host by surprise. Yes, they were somewhat poorly led, but they did outnumber Robb's host 3 to 1, most likely (assuming Robb had about 5000 men, like he had at the Whispering Wood).

As to Jon, he has shown himself to be a great strategist (remember that Stannis' attack on Deepwood was Jon's idea), and he knows the North well. He has also shown great leadership, being able to hold the Wall with 30 cripples against 30 000 wildlings. He may also be able to use his skinchanging powers to see the battle from the sky (something every general dreams of). That said, of course Ramsay is dangerous in his own way, and seems at least somewhat capable, judging by his performance at Winterfell.

[jomas]

In terms of single combat I doubt Ramsay is anywhere near the talent of Jon, he only attacks men who have been already subdued, I have no doubt if he gave the other man a fighting chance he wouldn't be able to properly fight someone with training.
In terms of Commanding I still think Jon, he was capable on the wall, while Ramsay again relies on dirty (but all is fair in war) tactics, in a straight on fight I doubt Ramsay would be able to keep Jon from taking him out.

[Pinkie Pie]

Jon Snow has command talent? I have never seen this even hinted in the books.
His only experience in commanding an army came during the attack upon the Wall by Mance Rayder and he didn't route the enemy, he only kept them at bay long enough for Stannis to defeat them.

Every order (with one exception) was a standard order for tyhe defence of a wall/gate which could have been given by anyone, it did not take talent t6o do what he did rather it takes incompitence not to. Ordering trebuchets and catapults to launch rocks at enemies and ordering his men to fire burning arrows at a ram? Hardly decisions that require a great tactical mind.

The exception was the pouring of water in the barrels of gravel to create solid objects that could be used to destroy the second ram but this idea hardly makes him a great commander does it.

Ramsay Bolton on the oither hand cut down severan thousand northerners with just 600 of his own men in a field battle. WHile also not something that makes him a great commander this achievement far outweighs holding a 600 foot high wall for a few days.

Ramsay Snow would lose in a duel I agree but Jon is never noted to be a great swordsmen, he was easily defeated by Mance Rayder and would have been defeated by Halfhand too if Ghost had not joined in.

[jomas]

Ramsay Bolton on the oither hand cut down severan thousand northerners with just 600 of his own men in a field battle. WHile also not something that makes him a great commander this achievement far outweighs holding a 600 foot high wall for a few days.

You do realize those men were not expecting a battle right? they opened their arms to him thinking he was their ally, most likely many being unarmed or unready for combat, in history armies that lacked preparation were completely slaughtered, no matter how many were fighting, the Northerners had no idea what was going on until they were already being killed.
Sure, Snow hasn't had many battles to command, but living with a noble house, then becoming a steward of the Lord Commander, there was no way in that time he didn't learn at least standard battlefield tactics, Ramsay never had those privileges, while he knows to fight dirty, which is an advantage, on a pitched battlefield with both sides prepared I don't have any doubt Snow would win.

[The Forgotten]

He wouldn't have been able to match the best of the best but if I remember correctly he was the best swordsmen on the Wall by the time he took the role of Lord Commander. There was only one other member of the Night's Watch who could even match him. Tag that with his Valyrian Sword and he could beat 70% of the warriors in Westeros. That isn't saying too much considering the state it is in but still.

[ButtSwag]

I think we can Assume Jon is a good fighter because he was trained by a master-at-arms and was one of the best fighters in the night's watch.

When Ramsay defeated all those men however, he had 600 seasoned veterans against 5000 newbs (greenboys, old men, etc) if I remember correctly, so that would also factor in.