The Battle of Ice (SPOILERS up to Wind's of Winter)

**Riverknight** · April 08, 2013, 09:53 PM

Who will win the upcoming battle between Roose Bolton and Stannis Baratheon or as I like to call "The Battle of Ice"?

For me I personally think Roose will win for a few reasons.

1.) I believe he will trap Maderly's between the Frey's men and Ramsay's men. I mean why else would he send out those men, if he intentionally did that then he deserves to get Flayed and then have his skin sewed on.... and ripped off.

2.) I do not think Roose will give him open battle he is to smart.

3.) Roose is a very cautious military commander, therefore I think he will first exterminate any "turn cloaks" in his army.

The only way I see Roose losing is either GRRM actually favoring the good characters! Or Ramsay killing Roose, hence the letter sent to Jon Snow, there is no way Roose knew or allowed Ramsay to send that.

Also, if Ramsay does not kill Roose and Roose still ends up losing, I still think he will escape with his life, Roose will bend to Rickon as Roose is worth a lot more alive than dead (If Rickon is found in time)

Also to people (Hopefully no one on this forum!) who think that Jon Snow will come and turn the tide of battle, that is ridiculous! Jon Snow is no military leader, Roose, hell even Ramsay would crush him in battle.

There are my 2 cents I want to hear yours!

**Korpskog** · April 09, 2013, 02:37 AM

Well Stannis is also a proven commander and from the look of it he will face Ramsay and the Frey men with a good defensive position. The 2000 Frey levies who marched north are not used the the climate and will fall easy. Stannis has the clansmen who did shortwork of the ironborn at DeepWoodMotte, I think they can handle some Freys!

Also Ramsay believes that the Karstarks will join him and turn on Stannis, unfortunetly for Bolton their treason has allready been revealed!

I say it is a 50/50 battle!

**ButtSwag** · April 09, 2013, 04:00 AM

What do you mean by the letter Ramsay sent will help him kill Roose? I don't really understand that. I think Satannis' men wont ver quickly compared to Bolton's. I'm assuming they're very loyal to Stannis, as most would have deserted him by now. With the Frey's and Manderly's at each others necks, I'm guessing they will be at each other's throats and eventually break out into a fight, giving Stannis a huge advantage.
Freys will die, Manderlys will go back to White harbour or something, leaving Ramsay and Roose to fight Stannis.

**Gandalfus** · April 09, 2013, 07:25 AM

Stannis is a proven tactician, and knows what he's doing.

**Riverknight** · April 09, 2013, 07:55 AM

Butt Swag, what I am saying is that Roose does either not know about that letter, or was killed prior to Ramsay writing it.

**Mount Suribachi** · April 09, 2013, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by The Knight Of The Rivers

Who will win the upcoming battle between Roose Bolton and Stannis Baratheon or as I like to call "The Battle of Ice"?

For me I personally think Roose will win for a few reasons.

1.) I believe he will trap Maderly's between the Frey's men and Ramsay's men. I mean why else would he send out those men, if he intentionally did that then he deserves to get Flayed and then have his skin sewed on.... and ripped off.

2.) I do not think Roose will give him open battle he is to smart.

3.) Roose is a very cautious military commander, therefore I think he will first exterminate any "turn cloaks" in his army.

1) Roose isn't leading the sortie, Ramsay is. Roose is safe behind Winterfell's walls with most of his men. Its the Frey's, Manderlys, and other northmen who have gone to fight Stannis. He's doing what he did south of The Twins, sending everyone but his own men to fight and die, keeping those loyal to him nice and safe and alive. He has seen the Freys and Manderlys at each others throats (literally) - better to send them out to fight the real enemy, than fight amongst themselves.

2) Roose isn't leading the sortie, Ramsay is. Ramsay isn't very smart. Cunning. Cruel. But not smart.

3) Roose is very cautious. He is suspicious of the Manderlys, but believes they are too scared to betray him. But that's why he's sent out the Manderlys and other Northmen - they get to prove their loyalty, and have their numbers thinned at the same time. And he expects the Karstarks to betray Stannis. What Roose or Ramsay don't know is that Stannis knows of the planned Karstark treachery and has nipped it in the bud. Neither side knows that the Manderlys are working against the Boltons, and that the rest of the northmen will follow them in a heartbeat.

Finally, Stannis has a plan, that much is obvious. References to the weakness of the ice after all the fishing holes have been cut into it suggests he's going to lure them into a trap.

**Charerg** · April 09, 2013, 11:15 AM

Well, as I recall the "Pink Letter" says that Stannis was defeated in "7 days of battle".

So, if the Boltons do win in the end, it's still going to be a very long and bloody battle. It could go either way. Stannis is a great commander, and occupies a good defensive position. There's a pretty good chance that Stannis will utilize the weak ice to send the Frey knights into the freezing depths.

On the other hand, Stannis doesn't have any food, his men are half-starved, he doesn't have any cavalry....so if the Boltons are patient and gradually weaken his forces for 7 days, there's a good chance they'll take the battle.

**Archon Patriarch** · April 14, 2013, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Charerg

Well, as I recall the "Pink Letter" says that Stannis was defeated in "7 days of battle".

So, if the Boltons do win in the end, it's still going to be a very long and bloody battle. It could go either way. Stannis is a great commander, and occupies a good defensive position. There's a pretty good chance that Stannis will utilize the weak ice to send the Frey knights into the freezing depths.

On the other hand, Stannis doesn't have any food, his men are half-starved, he doesn't have any cavalry....so if the Boltons are patient and gradually weaken his forces for 7 days, there's a good chance they'll take the battle.

Not likely, Stannis doesn't have the men for seven days of battle, nor will he attack. However "Ser Stupid" who wants vengeance is in a good mood and sure of his position WILL attack, on horseback, against the "Weak" men on foot. Right over the ice I bet without seeing it. How much does a charging warhorse and knight in armor weigh? Ramsay is neither a skilled fighter or tactician, just vicious. He'll go for that too, I expect the manderlys like their fat Lord to take the back and be more cautious, when their "Allies" fall through the riverbed they enact their own ambush and sweep them up. If Ramsay comes last after them, they can feed him whatever ******** he likes, he then instantly sends two letters, one to Roose, one to Jon.

**WarbornUK** · April 15, 2013, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Archon Patriarch

Not likely, Stannis doesn't have the men for seven days of battle, nor will he attack. However "Ser Stupid" who wants vengeance is in a good mood and sure of his position WILL attack, on horseback, against the "Weak" men on foot. Right over the ice I bet without seeing it. How much does a charging warhorse and knight in armor weigh? Ramsay is neither a skilled fighter or tactician, just vicious. He'll go for that too, I expect the manderlys like their fat Lord to take the back and be more cautious, when their "Allies" fall through the riverbed they enact their own ambush and sweep them up. If Ramsay comes last after them, they can feed him whatever ******** he likes, he then instantly sends two letters, one to Roose, one to Jon.

Hence why I said it reminds me of the Battle of The Ice where the unlikely winners used the Ice to defeat the heavily armoured Teutonic Knights

**zburanuki** · April 09, 2013, 11:28 AM

They both will be defeated by the Whites!

**Pinkie Pie** · April 09, 2013, 08:16 PM

Stanjnis vs Roose would be interesting, on one hand you have King Stannis who will never yield no matyter the odds and on the other you have Lord Bolton who will do anything and betray anyone to survive.

I have a feeling Stannis will winthe battle against Ramsay then move against Winterfell, meanwhile Davos will return with Rickon and White Harbor will join with Stannis. Roose Bolton will propably withdraw to the Dreadfort just ahead of Stannis (he knows he can hold it longer than the ruined capital of the North) and there he will prove to be enough of a threat to be too dangerous to leave behind as an enemy while retaining enough of his original power (he still has his core forces he bought back from the Riverlands who are dedicated to him and could have as many as three thousand under his personal command) to make Stannis think twice about taking the castle and losing much of his own army.

Should this happen Stannis will have no choice but to offer Roose a chance to bend the knee and keep his lordship over his original holdings (not the entire North although he may get to keep this too) and Roose will be smart enough to know that if he does not accept this Stannis will take the Dreadfort by force even if it costs him.

**Mount Suribachi** · April 10, 2013, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

I have a feeling Stannis will winthe battle against Ramsay then move against Winterfell, meanwhile Davos will return with Rickon and White Harbor will join with Stannis. Roose Bolton will propably withdraw to the Dreadfort just ahead of Stannis (he knows he can hold it longer than the ruined capital of the North) and there he will prove to be enough of a threat to be too dangerous to leave behind as an enemy while retaining enough of his original power (he still has his core forces he bought back from the Riverlands who are dedicated to him and could have as many as three thousand under his personal command) to make Stannis think twice about taking the castle and losing much of his own army.

Roose would be a fool to abandon Winterfell - we've already seen how difficult it is to move in winter. He would lose most if not all of his army on the march, which would take forever. He is Lord of the north, Winterfell is the capital of the northlands. He has to stay in, and hold Winterfell if he is to have any legitimacy. And in this weather, and besieging army would suffer tremendously and not be able to sustain the siege. Roose is just fine where he is, nice and snug with enough men to hold his walls.

**Pinkie Pie** · April 10, 2013, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi

Roose would be a fool to abandon Winterfell - we've already seen how difficult it is to move in winter. He would lose most if not all of his army on the march, which would take forever. He is Lord of the north, Winterfell is the capital of the northlands. He has to stay in, and hold Winterfell if he is to have any legitimacy. And in this weather, and besieging army would suffer tremendously and not be able to sustain the siege. Roose is just fine where he is, nice and snug with enough men to hold his walls.

My theory was based on Rickon being bought back and Manderly joining Stannis (a likely outcome, I can not see Rickon just disappearing in one book and never being mentioned again.) and if that happens Manderly will be able to use the White Knife to ship supplies up to Winterfell to support a siege.

Roose may stay at Winterfell but the place is heavily damaged by fire and lacks the stores for a potracted siege. On the other hand I have no doubt that he has kept enough food back at the Dreadfort to keep his castle going throughout winter. He stated to Reek (or was it Ramsay?) that Winterfell was a trap for him as well as Stannis and that they could never survive even a short siege without food from his allied castles.

**Mount Suribachi** · April 10, 2013, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

My theory was based on Rickon being bought back and Manderly joining Stannis (a likely outcome, I can not see Rickon just disappearing in one book and never being mentioned again.) and if that happens Manderly will be able to use the White Knife to ship supplies up to Winterfell to support a siege.

The White Knife will be frozen

**ButtSwag** · April 09, 2013, 10:10 PM

I don't think Stannis would let Roose live. With him being just and all that, he probably doesn't want any of the Boltons left alive. Although he may, because he wan't very fond of the Starks either...

**Riverknight** · April 09, 2013, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by ButtSwag

I don't think Stannis would let Roose live. With him being just and all that, he probably doesn't want any of the Boltons left alive. Although he may, because he wan't very fond of the Starks either...

Stannis is not really fond of anyone besides Davos.

I think Stannis "might" want Roose to live, but the other Northern Lord's won't, well the Umbers will, Big John is still in the Frey's.

**jomas** · April 13, 2013, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by ButtSwag

I don't think Stannis would let Roose live. With him being just and all that, he probably doesn't want any of the Boltons left alive. Although he may, because he wan't very fond of the Starks either...

Stannis would not let Roose live, He's a just man, and seeing as he and the Frey's broke a tradition as old as anyone can remember he has reason to do so, not only that, but by ending Bolton's life the North can see reason to support him, maybe not everyone can send troops (do to hostages) but if he wins, his survival in the north has a far better outlook then it does now.

**Aegon VI** · April 24, 2013, 01:30 PM

Jomas are you serious ? you think stannis would let Roose live ? the northmen loyal to Stannis would DEMAND his head for his part in the red wedding, he only keeps them in line with fear. Not to mention, Stannis is hardly know for being forgiving. "Stannis is Iron, he'll break before he bends" - he wont give in and let Roosey live i dont think.
One more for the fires mayhaps

**CorvusCorax** · April 24, 2013, 03:23 PM

Couple of questions: firstly, how do we explain that note from Ramsay? Because that occurs in a chapter before the Theon chapter given as a bonus preview of "Winds of Winter" at the end of DwD... obviously Martin has played around with the sequence of things between books before, but that seems like a very strange thing to do in this case - tell the reader that Stannis is dead, and then straight away give them a chapter where he isn't. So why the ploy with the raven? A pre-emptive threat from Ramsay to try and get "Arya" returned; a random bluff? Is the note definitely from Ramsay, or has someone else (a crow?) had a part in this, attempting (and succeeding) in luring Jon into rash actions, giving them an excuse to assassinate him? As far as I remember the Bolton's have made no mention of Jon before, why suddenly now? He is an obvious choice as the person "Arya" would run to, but the Bolton's know she isn't Arya I assume, and they only know Theon went off with her... after all Theon did to Winterfell and supposedly to Bran and Rickon, would he head for Jon?

On another note, what do people think is going to happen to Jon in the immediate future? My theory is that Martin can't kill him (based on the fact that we all love him too much, and he's never done anything like that before has he...?) In all seriousness, so much points towards him having some greater involvement in the "Song of Ice and Fire," with the whole possible R+L. Melisandre to breath life back into him as Thoros does for Dondarrion?

**Mhaedros** · April 09, 2013, 11:18 PM

No one seems to have thought about that the Frey's still holds half the north as hostages. Maybe not Manderly anymore, but if Umber were to join Stannis at this point they could say goodbye to their nephews head. I think the lords of the North are going to wait to see the Late Lord's reaction when he hears the Mormonts have joined Stannis before risking their families' lives.