Where Dark Things Sleep - New faction enhancement submod for OOTM

[Keyser_Soze]

Interesting ideas here, I've always thought a veteran unit would be good, perhaps an orc unit in Moria or Goblin Town consisting of veterans of the war of the orcs and the dwarves (Orcs have longer lifespans than dwarves, we can gather from some of the few orcs who have ages such as Bolg, who had been alive since at least Azanulbizar), or maybe the battle of the 5 armies. These orcs would be greatly experienced, with strong defence and better quality weapons and armours. Given that they're still alive after all this time, we can judge that these orcs are among the greatest of the orcs of this faction, given that insubordination would appear to have been common with orcs.

[Spice Master]

AFAIK the lore is inconclusive re: Bolg. His father Azog definitely ruled from Moria, but Bolg is portayed gathering the orcs for the Battle of Five Armies at Gundabad. It's not stated if this was his capital, or just a staging area to gather the goblins of the mountains to march on Erebor.

Warg riders are most often connected with goblins of either the northern (pursuing Bilbo and Co, Bolg's army, attacking the Fellowship in Hollin) or the southern (in the service of Saruman) Misty Mountains. There are wolves and wargs described in the service of Angmar as well.

My plan is to make heavy-ish goblin warg riders as the default general. I'd like to make them missile or skirmishers so as to keep OOTM generals from getting slaughtered to easily, since the low morale of these armies will lead to lots of instant mass routes otherwise. Trying to fins if there is any support in the lore for this.

[lordargento]

Perhaps you can give General heavy armoured wolves instead of Wargs (more common to Gundabad and Isengard).
I have foun out these different trolls:
Stone-trolls were a race of trolls in the service of Sauron. Not much is known of these creatures, except that they inhabited the Westlsnds of Middle Earth and that they spoke a "debased form of the Common Speech".

Bert, Tom, and Bill — the trolls encountered by Bilbo and his companions on their journey to Erebor — were likely of this kind, as they spoke Westron.

[Poosticks7]

Perhaps you can give General heavy armoured wolves instead of Wargs (more common to Gundabad and Isengard).
I have foun out these different trolls:
Stone-trolls were a race of trolls in the service of Sauron. Not much is known of these creatures, except that they inhabited the Westlsnds of Middle Earth and that they spoke a "debased form of the Common Speech".

Bert, Tom, and Bill — the trolls encountered by Bilbo and his companions on their journey to Erebor — were likely of this kind, as they spoke Westron.

Trouble with stone trolls as a unit is well - they turn to stone in daylight.

[lordargento]

Sorry, double post, please delete.

[ThaDoews]

I have one demand: It will fit to MOS

Good luck! I look forward to play OoTMM now

[Gongsunzan]

I remember in the hyrule total war mod they have alot of weird ranged attacks such as rocks being thrown and fire being spit from monsters or mages. They made the range incredibly long for the fire spewing so maybe you could talk to someone on that mod or download it and find the scripts for units that do it if you get stuck

[Madril]

I got some ideas, more or less linked to previous mentioned above :

-Black Uruks of Moria ; Elite,fierce orcs wielding scimitars and broad wooden shileds, thick armour. Well trained and savaged, sent by Sauron to control over the Orcish tribes.

-Orc warriors of the Black Pit: Strong mountain orcs who dwelt in Moria during its sack and invasion ,these orcs wield strong curved blades and deadly axes coupled with iron shields but lack complete heavy armor. They are made for killing rather than defense.

-Moria sharp-eyes : these Goblins are vicious and have keen senses, excellent vision in the dark and are really accurate as archers. They are heavy armoured but still fast and agile.

-Hill Trolls: brutal Trolls from the Ettenmoors and Trollshaws, those Trolls are smaller then their Mountain or Cave cousins but are still dangerous and faster than their bigger relatives. They wield round and spiky maces.

- Units described by Spice Master. (orc berserkers, Troll stone thrower, Wolf riders)

- Hobgoblins: these large Goblins are the most dangerous of their kin, often wielding broad scimitars and clad in heavy armour similar to the other Goblins but with a chainmail reinforce their protection. They are the biggest Goblins and thus are sometimes used as bodyguards and elite infantry, yet still less numerous than the basic Goblins and Snagas.

[Araval]

FRoGS has a Black Uruks of Moria unit btw.

[knight of meh]

hope this isn't to off topic .. was just scrolling through not reading the posts .. and i thought Araval had posted a picture of ninja's . for one bright moment i was happy believing in ninja's i thank you and +rep just for that (and i can't rep it seems hunh...)

spicemaster something like them above would be appreciated , blatant attempt to be considered on topic :

[Spice Master]

There will be no orc ninjas in this mod.

[Spice Master]

Honestly, I don't want to include to many heavy armoured units either. I really want this faction to rely on numbers and special monster units such as trolls, wargs, and the balrog. Here's what I'm thinking as of now:

-Orc berserkers: lightly armoured, dual wielding shock troops. Probably an AOR unit from somewhere in the north
-Black Uruks of Moria: roughly as described above, but with some weapons and equipment that look dwarvish (looted form the sack of Moria) AOR unit
-Cliff Trolls: Throw rocks, melee with fists
-Light wolf rider snagas
-Heavy warg rider orc body guard, based on the ones in An Unexpected Journey
-Hill Trolls: Smaller, weaker but faster than other trolls. Wear some light armour and use bladed weapons.

[Spice Master]

Also:

-Hobgoblins/Half-orcs: Taller than goblins and wielding a mix of orcish and mannish weapons and equipment. Restricted recruitment, only available in settlements with a significant mannish population (minimum 10% northmen or numenorian culture).

[glassakias]

- OOTM will lose the capability to field some higher tech/disciplined units including traditional artillery and halberd/phalanx polearms

about the lack of artillery, tolkien clearly states in the hobbit that the goblins had a talent for creating advanced machinery, especially when torturing and killing was involved. thus, if you want to go with the lore, goblin artillery actually needs improvement, rather than being removed. i think that games like BFME 2 are to blame for establishing the idea the goblins are a "naturalistic" faction, relying on units and beasts like giants rather than machines.

good point about higher tier units, though. i don't think creatures who consider not killing each other the highest form of discipline would be able to form an effective phalanx

[Spice Master]

Thanks for your input. While you are of course correct on the face of the matter, the passage to which I think you refer doesn't actually state that goblins, particularly the goblins of the mountains, had such devices at this time.

"Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them." The Hobbit

However, the only time we actually see orcs or goblins using war machines is under the direct domination of some immediately present greater dark power, Morgoth at the siege of Gondolin (where by some accounts they had tanks and APCs even!), Saruman at Isengard and Helm's Deep, or Sauron at the Pelennor Fields. Where such a dominating will is absent, we don't see goblins using war machines, most notably at the Battle of Five Armies, where catapults would have been mighty useful in assaulting the heavy fortress of Erebor. At both the siege of Lothlorien by orcs from Dol Guldur and Moria, and the Battle Under the Trees between Mirkwood orcs and wood elves there is mention of damage to the trees by fire, but again nothing about war machines in situations where they might have made sense, but there was no powerful evil will actually directing things on the scene.

[Spice Master]

So, I while I think it's great for Isengard, Mordor, even OOG (at least when/if the Witchking returns to Angmar) to have them, I feel that complex siege engines are out of place for OOTM. They will still have rams, ladders, and towers of course. I think from a gameplay perspective, it will really help to give them a different flavor from the other orc factions as well.

[Spice Master]

So what I get out of this textual analysis of the lore, is that yes, goblins are capable of making things like catapults, but without the presence of a powerful directing evil will, they won't go to the trouble to do so and instead tend more toward being lazy, dirty, disorganized savages. Exactly the flavor I'm trying to capture for this submod.

Of course, all of this is moot unless I can actually get stone-throwing trolls to work

[The Uruk]

As a suggestion, since orcs in the misty mountains mostly did raids, a script that would encourage raiding into enemy provinces and retreating would be pretty cool and immersive.

[Spice Master]

That's a great idea. +rep, especially if you might be interested in helping with the script. (I've seen the awesome work you did for Isengard!)

[The Uruk]

I would love to help. (However, I'll only be able to some significant scripting in the weekends)
We can work out the script via PM.