Early republican army

[HopliteHero]

Two questions:

1) What's the best way to represent an early republican roman army? (10 Maniples of Hastati, 10 Maniples of Principes, 5 Maniples of Triarii & 10 Maniples of Velites.) As there's only 20 slots for units I was hoping for some help showing this kind of army.

2) Realistically is there any way an early style army will stand a chance online? I've tested similar armies in custom battles and they get slaughtered so easily, sometimes they run away before they even start fighting. Can anyone recommend any tactics even if they aren't necessarily historically accurate.

P.S Are there any nations that are particularly weak/strong against an early republican army?

[High Fist]

Historically,

I would say a Pre-Marian army would be best represented like this; 4 Hastati, 5 Principes, 2 Velites, 3 Triarii, 4 Cav and your General. This will leave room for an artillary piece, some mercs or even another principe. Then I'd arrange them something like this;

Velites - Velites
Has - Has - Has - Has
Prin - Prin - Prin - Prin - Prin
Tri - - Tri - - Tri
CavCav Gen CavCav

Hastati were probably more numerous than Principes but more units in the second line makes it easier to outflank enemy infantry.
I generally leave the Hastati line on guard mode and also fire at will (unless they send skirmishers first.) They just hold the enemy in place.
Principes charge through the gaps in the Hastati line and flank, if possible. The two units on the extreme right and left either circle around and flank the infantry or stop enemy units from flanking you.
Cav fight ensues, the Triarii on the flanks assist. You win that, charge your Cav at the enemy archers or infantry line. Whichever is more pressing. I'd send the Triarii straight for the infantry fight unless there is more enemy Cav that they can ward off. If all goes well you should have complete control of the map and victory in the palm of your hand.

I'm not much of an online player but heres some circumstances I can think of...
Fighting a Greek army (or whatever) with phalanxes will go badly with this kind of army. Unless they are levy pikes and you have good upgrades they will tear your infantry apart. Hastati just can't handle that from the front. If they have weak pikes go ahead. If not you need to mix it up a bit and outmaneuver the phalanxes. Use pila on the flanks of the enemy rather than the front to maximise damage. Greek cavalry suck so that shouldn't be a problem. Carthage and Seluecid have great cav though. Make sure your Triarii are involved in such a fight (all of them because Pre-Marian armies suck).
Also beware of archers. They'll chew up your velites and cav in a hurry. They'll kill your infantry pretty quick too if they get flank shots off.
Skirmish-heavy armies can be hell. You need to engage your infantry quickly.
Elephants, berserkers, chariots and maybe even wardogs will screw your line up. Take archers instead of velites and shoot them. Flame the elephants and chariots see if you can make them run amok. Good infantry can also screw your line up. Keep your Gen near the infantry fight rather than away at the cav fight.
This army + formation works best against barbarians. It should do for other match ups though.
Tbh in high money matches you would be better off with Urbans than Hastati.

A lot of this was random tips you probably already know but hey!

[High Fist]

My

post screwed up NOOOOOOOOOO!

[roxvile]

Hello! My source and inspiration is the book "Roman Battle Tactics 390 - 110 BC" (Osprey Publishing).

The manipular legion consists of:
- 1200 velites
- 1200 hastati
- 1200 principes
- 600 triarii

[roxvile]

lol sorry. I also screwed my first post x)

1) So, being aware of the 20 slots limit, I personally represent my ideal manipular legion in RTW like this:
- 4 velites (skirmishing, disrupting enemy formation. I also tend to replace 2 velites with 2 archers later in the game)
- 4 hastati (first line)
- 4 principes (second line)
- 2 triarii (third line)
- 2 equites (left and right flank. Being a hardcore role-player, I limit my cavalry to 2 units max. because I think the roman army wasn't heavy in cavalry numbers. If I need more cavalry, I buy mercenary cavalry)
- 1 general

That's 17 slots. I use the remaining 3 free slots for mercenaries, artillery or special units; it always depends on the specific battle situation i will face. For example:
- Slots 18 and 19: 2 barbarian cavalry mercenaries
- Slot 20: Onagers

[High Fist]

If you're a hard core role player then that's grand. But IMO I'd exchange the two Velites for cohorts. During long battles the velites quickly lose their effectiveness. Plus I like how two units of velites look spread out in front of my hastati.
Two Cav would suffice I guess. Not on online battles though, I wouldn't think.

[roxvile]

I have no idea about online battles. And I don't think a lot of people uses pre-Marian units in that case, lol.
I agree with Hight Fist about the velites: 2 is enough (+1 archer, that's my personal choice, of course).

I played a custom battle Rome (4 hastati, 4 principes, 2 triarii, 2 velites, 2 equites) vs. Gaul (6 warband, 6 swordmen, 2 skirmishers, 2 barbarian cavalry) and deployed my infantry in three lines and quincux formation (with intervals between maniples), just like the historical manipular legion. I'll be honest: I got my ass beaten by the AI xD The Gauls flanked easily my Hastatis (I expected that because of the intervals) but, even when I engaged my Principes to attack the flankers, I couldn't help to get routing hastatis quickly and then routing principes, being overnumbered by the Gauls. I didn't use the Triariis until my Hastatis and Principes got really screwed. My plan was to use the Triariis as last reserve and engage fresh against tired gauls (next time, I'll use them as flanking units from the beginnig of the battle). Actually, I suffered a close defeat but, in my previous experiences, I defeated the Gauls easily with the same army using solid lines instead of intervals.

Anyways, does anyone have experience playing any Rome faction using the quincux formation? What's his strategy? Of course, using intervals is harder than deploying the infantry in solid lines. However, the manipular legion was supposed to fight like this, right?

[Posantio of Umbria]

IIRC The manipular battle-line did not have large gaps in the front, the hastati would form a continuous line while the Principe and triarii maniples deployed in such a way as to leave room for the hastati to fall back and closed up behind them.

I usually deploy the hastati in a closed line 3-4 men deep (depends on unit size) and the Principes behind them in deeper formations (5-6 deep) to leave gaps for the hastati to fall back, and the triarii are deployed in oblong squares depth greater than width. Though I rarely have the hastati fall back bit bring up the principes where the formations are breached. This way, the internal flanks of the hastati are secure, and only the end of the lines can be outflanked if unguarded. Also, guardmode+fire at will should be on by default for the hastati, the hail of pila will stop any charge dead and can possibly rout low morale units. Guard mode ensures that the hastati do not tire as much as the enemy. If the enemy gets (very) tired-exhausted, you can throw in the Fresh principes, and if you dare, withdraw the hastati to rest up a bit. I find that cycling units works quite well in sieges too, especially in that infernal plaza fight.
Though I mostly play mods now (which are often harder), it is quite possible to win with a "historically accurate" (ymmv) army and formation... at times the velites, hastati and cavalry are enough to win the battle and the principes just tip the scales, especially against the Carthaginians, Gauls and Spanish.