1648: The Two Towers

[Turtler]

I am also in favour of the Knights of Malta staying in. There were probably more than 30,000 people living in Malta. Besides, it would be nice to have some proper Crusaders in this conflict of East with West and I believe they were the only western army besides Poland-Lithuania who actually fought the Ottomans at this period.

Sorry for the drive by; I must say this is shaping up to be an absolutely amazing side-mod and if it is anything like the Vanilla 1648 it will be amazing.

That being said, a slight drive-by correction to this. There's at least one and a half examples of an indisputably "Western" nation besides the Knights (depending on how you define it; would the Imperials count?).

That would be the Republic of Venice, which was fighting on the side of the main anti-Ottoman alliance led by the Empire. And in particular fought the Turks for its' last Greek colonies. By the end, it had one last final hurrah as the leader of an alliance with France, the Knights, the Papal States, and various Greek partisans against the Turks, had endured the longest siege in recorded history at Candia (almost as long as the Thirty Year's Proper!) for longer than anybody had imagined, and finally fell apart and exited history's stage while the Imperial-led mainland army drove back the Ottoman armies.

Suffice it to say, there's plenty of food for inspiration there. I'm not sure how you would work it given the faction list (and how the French and Papal troops involved were directly under Venetian command in Crete). But I just figured it would be worth noting.

Other than that, best of luck!

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Venice cannot possibly be left out.

[Dex-starr]

What is the current state of this mod?

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

The mod has been in hiatus and will remain so until a modeller offers to make our units. There was also an issue with the map, that could conceivably be resolved. But the mod would not be any fun without soldiers to fight battles with. We would especially need some Ottoman and Balkan unit models. Others could be borrowed from 1648. If we simplify the goals of the mod (not too many Balkan factions, maybe Greeks/Albanians 2-3 units, Croatians 3 units, with units for the Danubian principalities already existing in 1648), then I would say we need a minimum of about half a dozen Balkan units and a minimum of 6 new Ottoman ones, about a dozen new units at least. Ottoman Christian soldiers (Voynuk) could be used as generic rebels also for the Slavic regions. Someone has to make these 12 units.

If a modeller volunteers, then we could probably get Monti excited again about this project.

[naq]

How about you borrow some units from the With fire and sword mod?

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Does With Fire and Sword have Ottoman or Croatian units? I doubt it would have Greek and Albanian units, though. One such unit for example, would be light mercenary cavalry from the Balkans (mostly Christian Albanians and Greeks) called Stradioti that was used in Italian and Spanish armies.

[Turtler]

Does With Fire and Sword have Ottoman or Croatian units? I doubt it would have Greek and Albanian units, though. One such unit for example, would be light mercenary cavalry from the Balkans (mostly Christian Albanians and Greeks) called Stradioti that was used in Italian and Spanish armies.

As someone who has spent a long time wrangling with OiM2, its' compatibility, and the big honking language gap for my Denmark, Sweden, and Venice campaigns, I can confirm they have Ottoman units (one of the major factions in it) and Croatian units (the most I saw of them were as cannon fodder mercenaries for my own Venetians until I can get professionals in there, but it's something).

I'd also be willing to guess they'd likely have Greeks in some capacity. Albanians are less likely.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

We should perhaps take a look at those units then. Albanians and Greeks probably had similar dress.

By the way, while checking again for images on the web, I think I made something of a discovery. Druzhina had posted on another forum a ton of links to Ottoman units. He had two images of Janissaries from the late 16th century:
http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/...Janitschar.htm
and this
http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/...Janitschar.htm
by Luycken.

For sure these cannot both be Janissaries. I suspect the more plain looking one is not a Janissary but an armatole, a Christian paid for policing against Greek bandits, rebels and the like. Such units existed at the time and he looks good enough also for a typical Greek rebel (they were the same people wearing the same style of dress). Here are also some links with paintings of common folk mostly from Italy, with styles not far removed from what is known from later periods from both Italy and Greece, as ideas for the dress of peasants or lightly armed rebels and the like.

http://www.lmfantiques.com/data/item...large/1361.jpg
https://historicromance.files.wordpr...turydressa.jpg (middle figure, compare with this later style of Greek dress of an islander or these ones)
http://www.wga.hu/art/v/velazque/03/0308vela.jpg

For example the type of vest shown in the first and second image, the white colarless shirts, the shash around the middle, the buggy hoses and white legins.

[k/t]

Talk to the people from Tsardoms. There are many Turkish and Balkan units in that mod.

I say make the mod as complete as you can and use some placeholder units from other mods or even Vanilla until you can get some better ones.

[Turtler]

Talk to the people from Tsardoms. There are many Turkish and Balkan units in that mod.

I say make the mod as complete as you can and use some placeholder units from other mods or even Vanilla until you can get some better ones.

Agreed with this, if nothing else. There are a fair number of resources out there, and I am certain we can cobble together a decent mod using what we already have. Even if we limited it to "The Two Towers" themselves as factions, or just the vanilla game.

A few thoughts though. Firstly, about the Republic of Ragusa/Dubrovnik.

Yes, I love that little faction more than I probably should, but I honestly do not see it working as an independent faction. Too small, too resourceless, and above all so thin on the ground in terms of military sourcing that it probably isn't worth it. Certainly not if it edges out factions that show more promise or that we know we can nail down.

So as a compromise, I might suggest handing Ragusa over to the Kingdom of Croatia. I realize this is a highly imperfect situation, but this both frees up a faction and gives people the ability to play around with the Republic and its' unique dynamics and units in some form. Also, I think if handled cleverly it might give the Kingdom of Croatia more diplomatic options than either faction would have as it stands, with the option to fight it out against the Turkish waves or to kowtow and collaborate with them (like Ragusa historically did on some level). In addition, you could merge unique Ragusan units and characters into the KoC ranks and have them there.

Secondly:

3. France (as annoying spawn faction similar to the Ottomans in 1648)

I hate to say this, but I don't see it working as well. Having some sort of mechanism to represent Habsburg concern on two fronts- the Turkish and French ones- is something that I figure'd be crucial. But having the French ape the Mongols does not strike me as such.

Having the Turks act as a spawn faction in 1648 worked so well because *nobody* on the campaign map of that really liked them, and their tendency to indulge in slave trading and border raiding in those areas was infamous. Ergo you had a reason for an omnicidal raid faction showing up on the border to give the Habsburgs something to worry about, or something for everyone else to if they- God forbid- got further.

The French did not work nearly as well for that. For one, given the map you have shown us it looks like this is a bit far East for them to be showing up in that sort of strength in the first place. Even at the very nadir of the Thirty Years' War for the Imperials, the French and their allies were at places and attacking targets outside the map. Even the "Danger Close" news of the anti-Imperial armies getting close to Vienna that largely triggered the Habsburgs making peace was when the Swedes were campaigning in Bohemia and the French were in Central Germany moving South. Neither of which really works that well on this map.

Secondly, the dynamics were not the same between the Turks on the 1648 map and the French on this one. For one, while the Turks tended towards raiding in the timeline and map presented in 1648, the French tended to send organized armies on campaign. Which would be a bit more of a problem having those spawn than just a middling Turkish cavalry stack on a recon en force, especially since the French didn't *really* campaign in strength on the map given here.

Secondly, the French were an established and respected (if feared) part of Western diplomacy. Of the factions on the map, they were *at least* on good terms with Venice, the Knights, and the Greek Rebels (their relations with the Ottomans are more iffy and hot/cold). It wouldn't make a large amount of sense for the French to show up and start attacking everybody.

In contrast, while the Turks were not the monolithic "other" hated by all Europeans/Westerners that some give, it is close enough to the truth where the 1648 factions are concerned. Nobody really liked them, outside of other horde factions and the French depending on what day of the week it was. That coupled with a lot of it being opportunistic raiding in the first place by people not particularly concerned with great power politics (even by the mercenary army standards of the day), and it made sense for them to go at everybody else.

So I'd probably suggest representing the French presence in some other way.

Thirdly, I do believe that people have been a bit overzealous in ripping the German statelets out of the campaign map. I agree it's not massively important to have everybody from Saxony on South to be playable, and that Balkan/Black Sea factions take precedence. But I do think at least some of them have a place. Particularly the bigger ones like Bavaria or Saxony that were actually involved in the region at this time. Those I think are worthwhile subjects, especially if we're talking about subbing them out to make room for- say- the Republic of Ragusa and its' glorious one province faction which would likely have a largely copy/paste Croatian (and possibly Italianesque) roster.

The Southern German states could have an interesting dynamic of their own, since they have to balance fighting the Turks off with confronting Imperial attempts to bring them under their power (especially since they're right next to each other and Bavarian/Saxon/what have you troops going to fight the Turks would have to go through Habsburg territory). That coupled with the fact that they're some of the few things making the French Spawn faction even somewhat feasible historically makes me lean towards them.

Finally, any ideas on how many of these would be playable?

Planned factions:


1. Austria
2. Spain (located in Southern Italy)
3. France (as annoying spawn faction similar to the Ottomans in 1648)
4. Poland-Lithuania
5. Ottoman Empire
6. Malta (you know, the pirates ehm order)
7. Venice
8. Crimean Tatars
9. Siebenbürgen (the German cities have their struggles against the hungarian princes of Transylvania, therefore, as a separate faction)
10. Transylvania, can be transformed to 11. (you remember Eriador -> Arnor? Calmar Script? Okay)
11. Kingdom of Hungary
12. Kingdom of Croatia
13. Bohemian Estates
14. Mirdita, can be transformed to 15.
15. Principality of Albania
16. Greek rebels, can be transformed to 17.
17. Byzantine Empire (yeah reborn of basilea ton romaion)
18. Bulgarian rebels, can be transformed to 19.
19. Bulgarian Empire
20. Principality of Montenegro, can be transformed to 21.
21. Serbian Empire
22. Principality of Moldavia, can be transformed to 24
23. Principality of Wallachia, can be transformed to 24
24. Kingdom of Romania
25. Rebels (the grey guys)
26. Aztecs (of course not playable or "not playable", used for special use)
27. Duchy of Bavaria
28. Barbary corsairs
29. Cossacks
30. Electorate of Saxony
31. Ragusa

Just my two cents.

If there's any way I can help, I'd be happy to.

Best of luck!

[Diocle]

Stradiotti and Eastern mercenary units for Venice are very good on 'With Fire and Sword' Mod, you may ask for permission to use some of their stuff, the quality is high.

I've just begun a Venetian Campaign, the year is 1618 and these are my Stradiotti storming Imperial arquebusiers:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[k/t]

I think the Eriador -> Arnor feature is the Lithuanian conversion one, not the Kalmar Union.

[beckyolt]

The quality of the units on the Fire and Sword mod is insane, maybe the best units I've seen on a TW mod. Apparently it's in Turkish so I never really tried it out.

[Diocle]

The quality of the units on the Fire and Sword mod is insane, maybe the best units I've seen on a TW mod. Apparently it's in Turkish so I never really tried it out.

No it isn't Turkish, actually it should be Russian but ... for me the result is the same! ... anyway the units are so good that I'm learning the Cyrillic alphabet (just for city names and the Generals' names!).

[+Marius+]

Croatia on the other hand - did. There is a good deal of evidence and temporary records of it's military, and it's role was not a passive one, on the contrary, it was in an eventful sandwich between the Habsburgs and the Ottomans. To speak of it as a state at the time would not be correct, however it definitely must be represented as one.

Considering that Croatia was the only political entity in a state of non stop "Ottomans don't respect peace treaties" total war with the Ottomans from 1463 to 1669 and that 2 of the 4 campaigns on Vienna were stopped by two Croatian generals leading two separate bands of Croatian/Hungarian troops;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_G%C3%BCns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Szigetv%C3%A1r

I would say that I quite agree.

It was a mess of decentralized regions due to constant Ottoman invasions, yet even then, prominent nobles such as Petar Zrinski and Fran Krsto Frankopan have dreamed of independence, and, together with Hungarians have plotted against the Habsburg Emperor. Alas, they failed and had their heads cut off.

It was a centralized politically active kingdom under a personal union with the Habsburgs(which they separately elected through the Croatian parliament in 1527) and was converted into a giant military base in 1486 practically serving as a giant war trench against the Ottomans.

P.S. I also think that Kingdom of Hungary is a must, represented as a vassal-ally of Austria of course.

Royal Hungary must be represented ingame if Croatia is since both kingdoms of Hungary and Croatia were in an identical legal state under the Habsburgs.

So as a compromise, I might suggest handing Ragusa over to the Kingdom of Croatia. I realize this is a highly imperfect situation,

To far fetched considering the kingdom of Croatia has by this timeline been bushed back 200-300 km away from Dubrovnik(yes, call it Dubrovnik, it was Slavenized by the 13th century).

If Dubrovnik is not ingame just let it be a set of rebel provinces.




Edit;

I will need some help of the great international community of TWC to make that mod detailed.
It would be helpful and nice if people could post answers/informations:

12. Kingdom of Croatia
-> Historical Units, historical characters between 1618-1648

Also every informations, ideas and suggestions you would like to see in this mod.

Heres some stuff;

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/B...7_stoljece.jpg
http://www.vrilo-mudrosti.hr/karte/v...17-18%20st.jpg
http://www.croatia.eu/images/02-04/povijest1606.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1667_Dubrovnik_earthquake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Novi_Zrin_(1664)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Croatia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskok_War

...and here's some people;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Mesi%C4%87_(priest)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Ibri%C5%A1imovi%C4%87
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikl%C3%B3s_Zr%C3%ADnyi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_II...5%A1kovi%C4%87
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran_Krsto_Frankopan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Krsto_Frankopan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juraj_IV_Zrinski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Antun_Zrinski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juraj_V_Zrinski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petar_Zrinski

Hungary and Croatia will be vassals of Austria i suppose?

[Monguntiacum]

Hello lads, after some time of doing other projects we returned to M2 Modding, we have already started again with working at 1648: The Two Towers. At first step gigantus solved the scroll bug. Hail to moddinggod gigantus ;-)

[Turtler]

My apologies for the long delay).

Hello lads, after some time of doing other projects we returned to M2 Modding, we have already started again with working at 1648: The Two Towers. At first step gigantus solved the scroll bug. Hail to moddinggod gigantus ;-)

That's great news! If there's any way I can help, don't hesitate.

To far fetched considering the kingdom of Croatia has by this timeline been bushed back 200-300 km away from Dubrovnik(yes, call it Dubrovnik, it was Slavenized by the 13th century).

I call it Ragusa and will keep calling it Ragusa for the same reason people called what is now Istanbul and before the city of Byzantium "Constantinople."

It is a historic name that almost everybody else called it well up until the era of WWI if not WWII, including the POV that the faction names are given in (hence the Germanic renderings of the faction names). I am well aware that it was Slavicized. But it also was Italicized (leading to the trappings of an Italian merchant republic on a mostly Slavic population and culture), and tied in to the Italian and Balkan politics for centuries by the time of this mod, and in many ways it was far more tied into the politics of Italy, Greece, and Turkey than it was to those of Bulgaria, nevermind the wider Slavic diaspora stretching all the way to the Pacific* by this point in time.

As for assigning Ragusa/Dubrovnik to Royal Croatia, yes I agree it is somewhat far fetched. But so is the idea of making it a random rebel province that anybody can eat, a non-differentiated Turkish province, or its' own faction when there has been an extremely aggressive cutting of German factions (even those that were involved in the affairs of the region). In contrast, Ragusa/Dubrovnik and the wider Kingdom of Croatia had major cultural links and sometimes even dynastic ones (depending on family marriage and trade between the two), underwent similar military changes with the exception of the Republic's naval focus and small population with the Kingdom's large population and lack of a navy, and can be used to afford a Croatian player more freedom of movement or choice in trade and diplomacy.

I don't pretend it is an ideal solution, but I think it is a serviceable one.

It's far fetched, yes. But compared to almost any other alternative it would

If Dubrovnik is not ingame just let it be a set of rebel provinces.

So just let the first faction with an army march in, blow everything up, and hoist the flag on what was historically something that survived autonomously for decades after?

If it were that easy, half of the factions involved in this map would have done it in real life. Venice, The Austrians under Eugene of Savoy, and the Ottomans (who were historically their liege lords) all come to mind, and came close enough. At best I think it would throw off gameplay a bit, at least as much as just forking it over to the Kingdom would. There should probably be incentives to not attack Ragusa besides "Oh Look, Another Rebel Army". Especially since Ragusa/Dubrovnik's main defense was commercial and diplomatic, not military.

Having the ability to snuff it out like you'd clean out any rogue Janissary/Mercenary held fortress can be done; vanilla Total War prior to Empire is like that to an insane degree. But it strikes me as unfitting for 1648.

Great sourcing and links. + Rep

Hungary and Croatia will be vassals of Austria i suppose?

Agreed, with some dedicated mechanic to simulate resistance against Imperial domination by the Habsburgs, which was something of a major feature of the era for them. The Hungarian/Transylvanian magnates in particular practically flipped coins about whether they would be fighting the Habsburgs or the Ottomans, and there was the Zrinski-Frankopan plan.

I don't know how this would be done (preferably some sort of decision system where you can do missions to strengthen your hand and weaken/strengthen autonomous strength, then decide whether to go it alone or do missions to bring the other vassal along with you into the revolt), but I think doing it is needed.

[Monguntiacum]

We revise the entire map and factionlist. Have a good 2015!

[Monguntiacum]

New Factionslist:


1. Archduchy Austria
2. Kingdom of Spain (at Italy)
3. Kingdom of France (at the western border of the map)
4. Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania
5. Ottoman Empire
6. Order of Saint John (at Malta)
7. Repuplic of Venice
8. Crimean Khanate
9. Seven Cities of Siebenbürgen (the seven german cities at transylvania)
10. Principality of Transylvania -> if controlled by human player it can changed to Kingdom of Hungary
11. Repuplic of Ragusa -> if controlled by human player it can changed to Kingdom of Croatia
12. Bohemian Estates -> if controlled by human player it can changed to Kingdom of Bohemia
13. People of Mirdita -> if controlled by human player it can changed to Principality of Albania
14. Greek Rebels -> if controlled by human player it can changed to Byzantine Empire
15. Bulgarian Rebels -> if controlled by human player it can changed to Bulgarian Tsardom
16. Principality of Montenegro -> if controlled by human player it can changed to Kingdom of Serbia
17. Principality of Moldavia -> if controlled by human player it can changed to Kingdom of Romania
18. Principality of Wallachia -> if controlled by human player it can changed to Kingdom of Romania
19. Duchy of Bavaria
20. Barbary Corsairs
21. Cossacks
22. Electorate of Saxony
23. Duchy of Savoy
24. Duchy of Württemberg
25. Margraviate of Baden
26. Swiss Confederacy
27. Repuplic of Genua
28. Grandduchy of Tuscany
29. Papal States

[Gigantus]

The revised (provisional) map area, planned (map_height) size: 961*575