1648: The Two Towers

[ZeEmperor]

Here are some for Dubrovnik,i recccomend you go with the third one(the one that was the actual one) or the second one as its very fancy shmancy!And also a pic with the panorama of Ragusa from early 17th century.

[YourStepDad]

Ah, Ragusa.

Now, let's be objective here - should Ragusa be represented? Ideally, yes, however, as Monti has stated before, it was a passive, declining Ottoman protectorate at the time, moreover evidence of 17th century Ragusan military is pretty much non-existent.

So what does one do with Ragusa? Should it be a part of the Ottoman Empire, thus making the Ottoman Empire use "auxillary" western/eastern european troops? Hell no, it was an autonomous protectorate, not a vassal city state, and that never happened.

Should it serve as an auxillary force for the Habsburgs? Even less sensible and unhistorical than the former, which is ridiculous.

Should Ragusa be able to amass armies and go on about conquering neighbouring provinces? Again, doesn't make much sense, and neither does some competition/rivalry with Venice at this point in history.

Should it be a single city? Well that would suck. But honestly seems like the most feasible choice. A rebel city? :/

Ideally perhaps, a what-if scenario where Ragusa attempts to restore it's prosperity through trade links. This is however not feasible in the slightest, neither historically and more importantly - because MTW is not capable of being a trade simulator. So that is out of the question.

So perhaps the most feasible decision is somehow giving it a few very tiny regions, and making it yet another small faction trying to resist the Ottoman, and perhaps Habsburg/Venetian conquest. But even this would not be a very good solution, as you would have to forcefully and unrealistically give Ragusa several regions, and more importantly, seeing as how there are no preserved military records, what would you do? Make it have the exact same units as Croatia?

I don't want to discourage or demoralize you, Monti, and I too would like to see Ragusa in, but fact is, it really had no relevant role in this period.

Croatia on the other hand - did. There is a good deal of evidence and temporary records of it's military, and it's role was not a passive one, on the contrary, it was in an eventful sandwich between the Habsburgs and the Ottomans. To speak of it as a state at the time would not be correct, however it definitely must be represented as one. It was a mess of decentralized regions due to constant Ottoman invasions, yet even then, prominent nobles such as Petar Zrinski and Fran Krsto Frankopan have dreamed of independence, and, together with Hungarians have plotted against the Habsburg Emperor. Alas, they failed and had their heads cut off.

You've potential for I daresay the most intense and hardest faction in the mod. You have a very realistic alternate history scenario, very good contemporary and quality artistic sources of the faction's military, and very clear goals. Overthrow the Habsburgs and protect yourself from Ottoman Invasions. Moreover, a scripted event about the plot may give Habsburgs another potential enemy. Starting as a state allied to the habsburgs and choosing the perfect moment to declare war should be the main theme of the faction, along with surviving the Ottoman invasions, of course.

In short, forget about Ragusa, unless you can think of something, of course.

Also, I do hope you're planning a different timeframe, as 1618 - 1648 doesn't make much sense for the eastern front, as you would miss out on the most important events, especially from the Ottoman point of view. You can't have a mod about 17th century Turkish conquests without representing the siege of Vienna, right?

Perhaps a date such as 1648 - 1700, a perfect timeframe for events concerning the Habsburg and the Ottoman empire, likewise a chance to cover military reforms from mid century, to reforms of circa 1670 and the gradual adaptation of uniformity, the bayonet, standing armies and generally the waning of the 17th century. Think about it. By doing so your mod(s) would cover the 17th century pretty much entirely. Or perhaps an earlier date, such as 1630, that way you'd have the units from the first half, mid century units and second(late century units). But that sounds like too much work, and starting at a date where the first part of the mod makes more sense, right?

Also, how will the Ottoman empire be represented? I would expect overwhelming hordes of Ottomans when playing as one of the European factions, then again, fielding that much from the start when playing AS the Ottoman empire is certainly not an option, is it? Perhaps making the Ottomans start the game in a war against many factions on many fronts, together with decentralized and rebellious European provinces - is the key.


In any case, you've a daunting challange ahead of you Monti, methinks one requiring even more hardships than TYW part of the mod, but I'm sure you're up for it.


There, my two cents. Can't wait.


P.S. I also think that Kingdom of Hungary is a must, represented as a vassal-ally of Austria of course.

EDIT: Pozdrav zemljaci.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

A Crusade had been declared to take Constantinople at around 1617-1618. Just the fact that this coincided with the Thirty Years War meant that practically nobody joined, only the Duke of Nevers, Mantua and Montferrat who was the one primarily interested in the Crusade. In the event he never sailed off, especially as the Austrian Emperor and Savoy went to war with him. The Spanish king and the Pope pledged some money so the Crusade could have taken off in principle. There were some raids from the Knights of Malta and Greek uprisings but there was not enough momentum. The Duke of Nevers died I think in 1632. But it could have been a potential significant point for Ottoman history .

As a 1648 sister mod, the 1648 timeframe and units should fit in well. Nothing would stop the Turks from invading and attacking Vienna. Monti loves making maps, so with as few new units as possible, the Two Towers mod has a good chance of materialising.

As for units, personally I would simply suggest halberdiers and musketeers for infantry for nearly all non-Ottoman factions around Italy, generic halberd militia and Zunftaufgebot with the helmets would be ok. Light cavalry was shared among Greeks and the Italians (Stradioti) with maybe the Maltese and Venetians having also a heavier cuirassier or demi-lancer unit. Greeks, Serbs and Albanians contributed some sipahi to the Ottoman armies until 1632 or so, these would be the same skins as the Ottoman Sipahis. Most of these units exist already in one form or another, there are also some Tatar/Cossack units, little new would need to be made except 1-2 Greek units shared with Albanians, rebels and as mercs for the Italians and/or Ottomans, then some Croatians and Ottomans and some re-colouring of old skin models, e.g. with big crosses on the Malta knights. Maybe 6-10 new skins, and some old skin reworks might be possible for a skin-maker. We should probably keep that side of things realistic unless there are volunteers with the know-how.

We can have later a cousin mod to 1648 with more units or a later timeframe.

[ZeEmperor]

In short, forget about Ragusa

[ZeEmperor]

Maybe we could get rid of all the little Deutsche states that still are in the mod and put Hungary and Ragusa in,because i think also Hungary shall be in the mod!

[YourStepDad]

Well that's a pity. Sounds more like a submod the way you put it.

The current timeframe would mean you miss out on the most important Ottoman related events. Likewise, you'd have to give a miss to the overwhelming majority of good contemporary military sources for a lot of the eastern factions, as they would be out of the timeframe.

Using generic units as a filler doesn't sound too exciting I'm afraid.

And true, vanilla MTW has some units that the Ottomans could use. But they're just that. Vanilla. I think a faction that this mod is largely based on deserves a completely new, rich and varied roster of units. And generally seeing vanilla units mixed with infracta quality units would just be off, don't you agree?

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

It really does sound more like a submod if that's the case... Ottomans really need to be done justice if it's worth doing at all. It's not even like this period and location hasn't been done before, as the map and timeframe is almost the same as OiM's, so really, if you're going to do it, do it right, or as right as possible.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

It is nice to see so much enthusiasm for this mod. If skinners can be found to do unit models that would be nice but there are no easy models one could borrow from other mods for that period. I do not have Ogniem i Mieczem, but I do not expect it has many skins we might be able to use, e.g. for Balkan units, assuming Rome skins can even be converted for M2. If there is interest from modellers who can do the Ottomans, by all means that would be great. It would be fantastic to have some skins for Ottoman units for this period.

As for the lack of information, in some respects there is more information about this period than any previous period in history. There are some military manuals from this period, actual letters and eyewitness accounts of men who fought in some wars. These are rare from previous periods.

Most European units at that time were similar in much of Europe. The same types of helmets and breastplates from former Venetian possessions in Greece one finds in Spain and Germany, even in England. But if anyone can find some special-looking unit, please post them.

Here are some links to some Maltese historical recreationists from around that period:

http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-pho...s-of-malta.php

http://anibaltrejo.photoshelter.com/...000eLOT_nI7j7k

http://www.malta.com/media/en/about-...ia-in-gozo.jpg

http://juno-janus.deviantart.com/art...ight-305454961

and a Caravaggio portrait of a Knight of Malta from 1608 http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/htm...10/61alof.html

and some Ottoman units:

Ottoman units from Peter Mundy's Album, "A briefe relation of the Turckes, their kings, Emperors, or Grandsigneurs, their conquests, religion, customes, habbits, etc", Istanbul 1618, from a copy in the British museum.
http://warfare.atwebpages.com/Ottoma...y-military.htm
Peyk
Solak or Solacchi, archer in the Sultan’s bodyguard
Cebeci footsoldier of the Old Corps of Armourers - Imperial Guard
Sipahi from Anatolia. Probably an officer or a bey on a horse not an actual sipahi.
Sipahi from “Rumelia” (i.e. from the central Balkans) but compare with the Bey of Rumelia here http://warfare.atwebpages.com/Ottoma...b-military.htm This is probably just their bey or general not a fighting Sipahi.
Janissary
Azeb, a marine
Tatar
Seferli janissary
Militia night watchman
Acemi Oglan conscript boy
I have reservations about the accuracy of some of these, compare for example with a somewhat strange-looking Greek priest, more likely an Armenian priest.

More pics from Hans Sloan's Album, "The Habits of the Grand Signor's Court" SL.5258, Turkey, c.1620
http://warfare.atwebpages.com/Ottoman/Album/Sloane.htm
including a Peyk halberdier
Peyk officer,
Bostanci kethudasi, Commander of the Imperial Guard
Bostanci Cavus, Imperial guard soldier
Cevrbaci, Janissary Colonel
Solak or Solacchi, archer in the Sultan’s bodyguard
Topcu artilleryman
Ottoman musketeer
Azeb, a marine
Cezayir, an Algerian or Dardanelles sailor/marine
Zurnaci, trumpeter
Davulcu, a drummer
Egyptian swordsman
Sipahi (probably an officer)
“Rumeli” sipahi (probably Christian)
Sipahi sons (cavalrymen)
Tatar

Ottoman soldiers from Deß Weitberühmbten... Herrn Melchior Lorichs... Wolgerissene und Geschnittene Figuren "Tyrkerværk" by Melchior Lorck in 1570-83 http://warfare.atwebpages.com/Ottoma...hior_Lorck.htm
Including images of Sebian horsemen with feathered shields, various janissaries, lots of lancers, a border soldier (Voynuk), Sipahi lancer, Sipahi archer but these may be out of date. Also a painting from the Siege of Malta http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_M02XK00Y0k...1600/malta.jpg
with beautifully painted Turkish soldiers and a few Turkish flags.

Here are some more photocopied from an unreferenced document in the Austrian National Library in Vienna:
Acemi Oglan, conscript boy http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5d7252a6.jpg
Janissary officer http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...pse0d59b73.jpg
Ottoman sailor/marine (probably Greek) http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7ec600d9.jpg
Ottoman sailors http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...psa6a8a5bb.jpg
Ottoman soldiers and Janissary captain http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...ps99bc10c0.jpg
Janissaries with new “recruits” (Christian boys) http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...ps74b74b90.jpg
Icg Oglan Janissary trainee http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...ps36ea8317.jpg
Janissaries http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...pse8c974fc.jpg

A few more Ottoman soldiers from I Turchi. Codex Vindobonensis 8626 of Bartolemeo von Pezzen, 1586 to 1591, Austrian National Library, Vienna
Bassa Reifknecht
Deli, Akinci or Martolose (Vlach light cavalry)
Janissaries
Standard bearers (with flags)
Janissaries
Vezir with Peyk infantry
Sipahi
Azab marines
Icg Oglan Janissary trainees
Dismounted Deli cavalry
Musketeers, some Christian-looking
Sipahis (note mail and plate armour) again Christian-looking
Delis
Pashas
Mounted archers
Janissary officers
Mueteferica horsemen
Solak or Solacchi (Imperial Guard) Colonel

Some more from 1657
http://warfare.atwebpages.com/Ottoma...b-military.htm
including an interesting drawing of a Cebeci of the Old Corps of Armourers - Imperial Guard and a Levend musketeer, something close to a Greek Armatole but with long trousers. The images of this album look enough like the 16^th C images from Melchior Lorck and especially the images of the late 16^th-early 17^th C, that they could also be used. See for example this dismounted Sipahi in http://warfare.atwebpages.com/Ottoma...Ralamb-106.jpg with a shield and a quiver full of arrows.

Some 19^th C drawings of 16^th C Turkish units based on Melchior Lorck’s illustrations from the period of the siege of Malta
Sipahi http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/...tel-Spahis.jpg
Deli light cavalry, potentially Serbian http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/...-Tollkopfe.jpg
Solak or Solacchi archers in the Sultan’s Guard http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/...tel-Solaks.jpg

Some of these sites have limited bandwidth, when I get a chance I will upload the images in some other way.

Edit: I removed the jpg links to the individual images, whenever these were not working, and left only the html links to the websites. Most of these albums are by druzhina345 and contain interesting collections of original images. There are more for other armies and from other periods. See http://warfare.atwebpages.com/

[Monguntiacum]

wow, great collection, thanks a lot! yes, please save pics, most links are "dead" when i try to take a view.

[tibu17]

Troops in Transylvania between XVI. century to XVII century.Because in XVIII. century Transylvania is joined the Rakoczi inpedente war agains Habsburg Empire.
Foot soldier:

Szekely foot soldier XVII. century:

Mercenaries troops:

Some of the Cavalry horses:

Bethlen flag(1615):

Transylvanian noble(1650):

Transylvanian green riding-gunman(1650):


Transylvanian hussar officer on foot(1680):


Transylvania riding gunman(1650):

Transylvania Carabineer(1680):

Hayduk's and hungarian troops in XVII. century:

Hayduk's:
Hayduk cavalryman:


Hayduk:

Other transylvanian gunman(1600-1650):


More Transylvanian cavalry's like hussar lancer.
Then hussar with bow and scimitar.:


Hussars:

Szekely horseman with flag:

Other szekely lancer:


In the central heavy szekely hussar:





Some other troops like saxon musketeers and hungarians:

The weapons of Transylvania in XVII. century:

CoA of Transylvania:

[Monguntiacum]

@tibu17, thanks a lot, too. Very good pics for unit making. And nice flag for leader (gabor bethlen).

[tibu17]

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/hung/bethlen1.html
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/hung/apafi3.html
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/hung/rakoczi3.html

Prince of Transylvania in 16 century and 17 century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...f_Transylvania

[Mr Kriegtooth]

I dunno if my advice is any good, but I'd say let Ragusa in even if its somewhat ahistorical. If its not pushing a more worthy and unique faction out, keep it in

And dont mess with the Knights of Malta. I want to play them. BAD.

[tibu17]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...cussion-Thread

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

And dont mess with the Knights of Malta. I want to play them. BAD.

You are not alone there buddy .

[ZeEmperor]

WHY IS DA THREAD DEAD?

[knight of meh]

because people have lives... and Gigantus isn't here everything lives and dies with Gigantus

and on a serious note i think everyone is concerned with the save game destroyer

[Monguntiacum]

hum, to be honest, no. gigantus is in vacation. so we cant work without him at the both 1648 mods. 30Years need his hand and will for the savegame bug. And 2Towers for the scroll bug at southern italy (we call it the Bunga Bunga Bug ).
the both other teams of infracta are working at "Crusade Campaign Redesigned" and at "1237: Interregnum". Two Medieval Timeframe mods.

[Sephiroth91]

And 2Towers for the scroll bug at southern italy (we call it the Bunga Bunga Bug ).

Anyway, the mod's great, though very difficult. I've never been much interested in the 30Y war, but your mod is really stirring me up; since next month I'm having an exam about 16/17th centuries religious war guess I'm gonna eviscerate it.

[ZeEmperor]

Save game bug?COME ON,THIS IS THE ONLY MOD I HAVE SEEN WITH SO MANY ISSUES,ITS UNPLAYABLE,i cant play because my game crashes when i want to load my save game,im in year 1619.