I have more respect for the orcs after reading the books vs the movie

[RedGuard]

I am reading all three lord of the rings atm and am on the two towers at present. I just finished reading the Uruk Hai chapter, and realized how badly that scene was butchered in the movies. Don't get me wrong, i enjoyed it in the movie in my ignorance ad it was interesting in of itself and gave the audience a glimpse of the bad guys viewpoint, just in the book it is so much better.

Urgruk in the book is way more responsible with merry and pippin keeping an eye on them everywhere they go. in the movie grishnak(forgot proper spelling, who i assume it is supposed to be)follows them into the forest and is crushed by treebeeard but in the book it is urgruk who follows them into the forest(And keeps them bound while he goes and tries to rally the isengardians) its not until urgruk and companions are cut down(it takes eomer to get off his horse and fight him mano e mano) that the hobbits get away by using thier elven cloaks. also in the book its way more apparent that the orc races hate each other almost as much as they hate the ones they are fighting which gives depth to their character and arent all just lumped into "the bad guys"

after reading that chapter it has changed my opinion almost 180 and i have a lot more respect for the orcs now instead of them just being bickering idiot pawns like they appear in the movies.

(if there are any more examples of how the orcs are smarter(or dumber) from the books please share. havent read rotk since i was 12 and i don't remember a thing)

[StealthFox]

Yes, poor Ocsies are not represented properly and get a worse reputation then they perhaps deserve. Wait until you get to The Return of the King and read about Shagrat and Gorbag.

[LuckyPistol]

StealthFox speaks the truth and even after Shagrat and Gorbag (who were switched in the movies for some reason >.>) there's the scouts looking for Frodo and Sam in Gorogoroth (sp?) Tolkien really gives an insight to every race, something practically no author or movie maker does today. You really feel for the orcs as the books go by when you understand they have their own culture (however warped that may be), rules, medicine, and how they interact with Wargs and such (read the hobbit). Just look at Azog and the War of Dwarves and Orcs. He simply moved into Moria since it was abandoned, found some dwarfs sneaking about, thought them trespassers and thieves or spies so he had them killed.

As you said before, Urgruk is very responsible, and you'll find Shagrat is as well

POWER TO THE ORC HORDE!

[RedGuard]

makes you wonder if they werent under the command of sauron how great they could be. I thought it was interesting too when they gave merry the liquor and it described him as feeling instantly relieved of pain and felt less mentally exhausted. That means obviously they have some medicinal knowledge however warped it is by evil.

I don't really think the orcs are evil at heart but the'yve been doing the wrong things for so long they don't know what right is

[Loki_999]

I don't really think the orcs are evil at heart but the'yve been doing the wrong things for so long they don't know what right is

Good thought... its probably been done before, but my next campaign may just be playings Orcs as the Good guys. Make friends with all the good races and go kick Sauron's ass.

[Curufin]

Whilst I agree that the movies paint it very black and white in reference to good and evil I think its a bit silly to play the orcs as good guys, this isnt WOW, they aren't noble savages, orcs by their nature are evil and cruel.

This is mainly due to the fact that they were created through morgoths corruption, they were created in his dark attempts to create life, which he couldnt, he could corrupt in a crude mimic of eru's power.

[BrighteousPony]

I haven't read the books, I should do soon, but I already have a lot of respect for the Orcsies from watching the movies.

[beermugcarl]

i think this is about the 100th time i have said this but yes the orcs are poorly represented just look at the battles! they weren't a numberless mass except for maybe a few occasions and on those times occasions things like the eagles tipped the balance at a crucial moment.
they were better than men at fighting! poorly equipped sure (unless they were uruk-hai or ones from specific area's) but by no means this useless horde that both the game and the movie has.

AND ON ANOTHER POINT! the elves weren't godly fighters UGH they were magically, mysterious and some of them were awesome fighters. but they aren't all that badass! most of them only care about poetry and trees even the awesome fighters were as good as the awesome dwarf fighters not better (look to gimli vs legolas)

somebody needs to do a balance sub-mod based on the books but moving on...

orcs don't get enough love, elves get too much love.

[Tankbustaz]

OTOH, during the battle of the Pellenor fields, the orcses are the ones that break and flee and the Haradrim and the Easterlings are the ones that give their lives, also Mumakil are more awesome in the books, anyone cares to disagree with my 2nd point?

[Praetorian349]

also in the book its way more apparent that the orc races hate each other almost as much as they hate the ones they are fighting which gives depth to their character and arent all just lumped into "the bad guys"

The Extended Edition of The Two Towers displays this very well in the scene where the Uruks transporting Merry and Pippin are intercepted by Grishnak and his Orc party.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSKtx2A1X80

[Flinn]

in general there is lack of precise informations about Orcs, IIRC it is said in the Silmarillon that Orcs follows the same "life rules" of other races (which I assume is eating, drinking, sleeping, breeding, etc), but there is no reference to female orcs, not even in the Hobbit when they are actually inside a Orc cave ...

it is difficult to make your own idea about them, I mean we only know that they have been created to be BAD, IMO evil men are worse, as they (decieved or not) decided to be bad.

F

[Praetorian349]

Evil Men are not necessarily worse. Remember Faramir's little thought while staring at the corpse of the Southron he killed, in The Two Towers movie?

"His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem.
I wonder what his name was.
Where he came from.
And if he was really evil at heart.
What lies or threats led him on this long march from home.
And if he would not rather have stayed there...at peace."

[Flinn]

well, for sure peasants cannot be blamed if irresponsible politicians (or rulers in general) make them fight wars, still what I was focusing on was the difference between "beeing created" to do evil as your own nature and "choosing" to do evil, the latter being worse, IMO


"Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor"

from War Pigs, Black Sabbath

[Curufin]

We shouldn't compare evil men and orcs, as stated by their very nature Orcs are cruel, their a wicked imitation of life created with the corruption of Melkor.

Evil men on the other hand are for the most part probably not that evil, you have to remember that Sauron spent much of the second age in the fthe east and the south bending them to his will, more than anything they feared him. Moreover we have to remember there was already much hatred between the Gondorians and the Southrons, they had fought many times even when Sauron was in hiding, the Haradrim resented the gondorians greatly, a similar situation is the men of Dunland, they happily helped attack Rohan alongside Saurmans forces, but in the end they weren't evil, they feared and hated the Rohirrim but that was related to history between the two and made worse by the lies of Saurman.

[Flinn]

true, still I remain that choosing (even deceived as I said) is worse than following your own nature, to exagerate the idea, it is like comparing a natural predator with a human serial killer

In any case the goal was not blame the evil men, but to give a different image of Orcs from simply saying they are bad

F

[LuckyPistol]

I think the only real evil men were black numenoreans, they literally worshipped and devoted themselves willingly to sauron, rather than work in fear of him like the orcs.

[Bloodly]

as stated by their very nature Orcs are cruel, their a wicked imitation of life created with the corruption of Melkor.

Be careful with that; it's known that Tolkien struggled with this, because he did not believe in absolute evil.

[Ngugi]

Non the less he said Orcs enjoyed being evil, although in their core loathed their fate, and was irredimable (beside, naturally, trough Eru himself apperently). Just as their bodies are corruptions so their souls are tainted by Morgoth's corruption to which they stay loyal and true to no matter his personal abscence.
The one looking for a good, or even neutral, Orc Tolkien's mythos is not their cup of tea.
That however is not a suggestion Tolkien's world is black & white, the situation for Men is obviously not. The "wicked Men" belive Sauron to be God, they fear him and fear and hate the peoples of the west both due to Sauorns manipulations as well as a history of Númenórean abuse; hardly would you find a wicked Man saying "I'm evil, and fight the good guys" hehe.
I suggest Myths Transformed in HoME 10 primarily and certain lettes secondarly to get a view on Orcs and moral matters.

Now I deem this threads purpose quite lost, being obscure to begin with; if people want to discuss lore matters of this kind then turn to the Tolkien General Discussion-thread

[StealthFox]

Non the less he said Orcs enjoyed being evil, although in their core loathed their fate, and was irredimable (beside, naturally, trough Eru himself apperently). Just as their bodies are corruptions so their souls are tainted by Morgoth's corruption to which they stay loyal and true to no matter his personal abscence.
The one looking for a good, or even neutral, Orc Tolkien's mythos is not their cup of tea.
That however is not a suggestion Tolkien's world is black & white, the situation for Men is obviously not. The "wicked Men" belive Sauron to be God, they fear him and fear and hate the peoples of the west both due to Sauorns manipulations as well as a history of Númenórean abuse; hardly would you find a wicked Man saying "I'm evil, and fight the good guys" hehe.
I suggest Myths Transformed in HoME 10 primarily and certain lettes secondarly to get a view on Orcs and moral matters.

Now I deem this threads purpose quite lost, being obscure to begin with; if people want to discuss lore matters of this kind then turn to the Tolkien General Discussion-thread

Ah, but they are not irredeemably bad.

They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote ’irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good.) - Letter #153 [Emphasis added]

As you rightfully point out this topic is better discussed elsewhere. It actually has already been discussed with two such threads here and here, but I just had to throw this line in before closing.

Anyone interested feel free to revive one of those threads or post in the Tolkien General Discussion thread.

Closed.