Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

[Leeroy9000]

I forgot to mention one more thing in my previous message, unit size of pikemen should probably be increased to 50 (like the other uruk-hai armored units.
Just testes a unit with the following changes from the original: 6 attack, 3 shield and 50 unit size, and greater orc warband was able to kill them in frontal assault by using that micro. On the one hand, it involves a lot of micro and can be very risky, but on the other hand, maybe pikemen cost and upkeep can be reduced since they are not so op now, perhaps to the level of vanguard +- a bit

[Leeroy9000]

I have tested the same unit of pikemen vs men at arms, and they were unable to win, as were guardians of the citadel. It appears that the decisive factor in breaking phalanx is the number of attackers. If this is the case, it is quite lore friendly, since Saruman pikemen they were probably designed to fight against good factions (at least until he rises in power) and these factions don't have large units. On the other hand, hordes of Mordor can overrun his organized army with a numerical advantage.

[CapnDan]

I have tested the same unit of pikemen vs men at arms, and they were unable to win, as were guardians of the citadel. It appears that the decisive factor in breaking phalanx is the number of attackers. If this is the case, it is quite lore friendly, since Saruman pikemen they were probably designed to fight against good factions (at least until he rises in power) and these factions don't have large units. On the other hand, hordes of Mordor can overrun his organized army with a numerical advantage.

Leeroy9000's update does sound reasonable and well thought out.

[Bardo]

I like 6 attack and 3 shield, but I'm not liking the idea to increase the number of soldiers. That is a weakness of pikemen that I like.
Did you test with lethality 1 or 0.7?
I must say that tests against the AI in 1 unit vs 1 unit battles are useful, but as you pointed, the number of soldiers is much more important in those test battles than in real battles where there is a front line with flanks protected.

I'll test 45 soldiers with attack 6, shield 3, lethality 1, and cost around 900. What do you think?


@CapnDan: I liked several changes of your modpack, but I had no time to test them propely, and I wanted the bugfix patch to be as simple as possible. I'll see if I can include some of them in next patch.

[CapnDan]

@CapnDan: I liked several changes of your modpack, but I had no time to test them propely, and I wanted the bugfix patch to be as simple as possible. I'll see if I can include some of them in next patch.

Thanks Bardo
I've also made a point of keeping the two 3.0 patch discussion topic OPs as updated as I can with any new items or comments as they came up.

[Leeroy9000]

As you think is more appropriate, 5 difference in squad size won't make much of a difference. The tests were all conducted with 1 lethality, and I deliberately deepened the formation of attacking infantry, so it does not envelope the phalanx to simulate a frontal assault the player may attempt vs AI (although the AI does not like to hold the line and can be outflanked no problem).
But what's with the cost of 900? the original was 490, and they got fixed in combat stats already

[Bardo]

I meant cost 900 in custom battle, 450 in campaign.

[Leeroy9000]

I meant cost 900 in custom battle, 450 in campaign.

Sure, why not. It's better for you to decide, as I have never tested these changes in multiplayer.
Also continuing tests vs AI units: it turns out that pikemen with all these changes (shield 3, 6 attack, unit size is default 45) can't beat Knights of Rohan (with 2 exp, as in the campaign they have 2-3 exp more often than not), although do really well against other cavalry of the same faction. At the same time spearmen easily beat the same knights. This is w/o stop-attack micro.
I have tried increasing their collision mass and/or density and giving spear attribute instead of light one, but none of these helped. Never thought I will say that, but they probably need some buff to attack. Here are the options I came up with:
1 Don't buff anything as phalanx can be microed (drawback: sometimes it's hard to keep track of everything in large battles, so the unit becomes much less efficient)
2 Return attack to 8 (probably the best one although it can be too powerful vs infantry)
3 Increase bonus vs horses by 2 (also not ideal as it affects both of their attacks, so flanking with cavalry is less powerful)
Or a hybrid of 2 and 3, give them 7 attack and one additional vs cavalry.

[Leeroy9000]

So what do you guys think on, are Uruk-Hai pikemen balanced now? Because now, with 6 attack they still kill most of the infantry (as long as the opponent does not use any dirty micro and the flanks are protected they probably kill any infantry) and provide a good defensive line, and can only break the line if attacked by heaviest cavalry from the front. Actually it makes spearmen a necessary unit, of which I didn't think at first, thus the balance becomes more complicated, and the game is more fun. Now I think even if their attack needs to be buffed it should be either increased to 7, or a +1 vs cavalry. This is based on playing a couple of 10k matches vs AI, 1v1 unit tests and campaign, no idea how it shapes up in mp though.

[Bardo]

I'm liking the pikeman with this reduction to attack 6 and shield 3. I agree it makes spearmen more useful, and I think it is a good change for mp too. Pikemen was one of the most powerful units in online battles, I bet they are still useful with these nerfed stats. They are more vulnerable to projectiles now, but there are more chances to protect them now with the increased range of isengard archers and crossbows.

I'll share the new bugfix patch v3.02 today.

[Leeroy9000]

Possible bug: Greater Mumakil have attack 10, while the ordinary Mumakil have 12.

[Bardo]

This one was intended.
The greater mumakil have more hit points, higher missile attack, and do not run amok, which makes them more valuable at the end.
The idea was to give them 2 different roles, one more defensive and stable, being the general units, and the other one more offensive and a bit crazy.

[Leeroy9000]

Now that makes sense, didn't notice that big ones can't run amok.

[Kaetan]

in version 3.0. I did not like the way some of the city: Osgiliath, Caras-galadhon.
Osgiliath is now more difficult to defend. moved to the area across the river, to be on the bridge hile would defend.


in Caras now need to keep large forces. Mordor and attacked constantly.

[zaroff1]

Been having a great game with Gondor on v3.0...It really is a fantastic mod! Well done! It's fixed most of the issues I had with the earlier version...However, I do have a few gripes...The diplomacy is really strange...I keep trying to gift (not exchange) territory I take from the Dunlendings and Isengard back to Rohan, but they keep refusing it even though I'm asking for nothing in return and now the Free Peoples have declared war on me and attacked the very territory I wanted to get rid of for no reason (I thought it was supposed to be impossible for an AI good faction to attack another good faction!)...I also cannot form an alliance with the Dwarves, Dale or the Greenwood Elves however hard I try (Once again, I'm helping them out because I'm attacking Dol Guldur at the moment and could do with their help...Also, why is Faramir the initial Faction Heir for Gondor and not Boromir? I realise this can be changed easily, but it has the disadvantage of giving Faramir the disinherited attribute. As Boromir is highly likely to survive longer than he does in the book, it makes sense to keep him in the family and his continued survival could even give Denethor a boost...

[Mr_Nygren]

Been having a great game with Gondor on v3.0...It really is a fantastic mod! Well done! It's fixed most of the issues I had with the earlier version...However, I do have a few gripes...The diplomacy is really strange...I keep trying to gift (not exchange) territory I take from the Dunlendings and Isengard back to Rohan, but they keep refusing it even though I'm asking for nothing in return and now the Free Peoples have declared war on me and attacked the very territory I wanted to get rid of for no reason (I thought it was supposed to be impossible for an AI good faction to attack another good faction!)...I also cannot form an alliance with the Dwarves, Dale or the Greenwood Elves however hard I try (Once again, I'm helping them out because I'm attacking Dol Guldur at the moment and could do with their help...Also, why is Faramir the initial Faction Heir for Gondor and not Boromir? I realise this can be changed easily, but it has the disadvantage of giving Faramir the disinherited attribute. As Boromir is highly likely to survive longer than he does in the book, it makes sense to keep him in the family and his continued survival could even give Denethor a boost...

I think you got to be demanding something in return for them to accept your proposal. It's a vanilla problem in Medieval 2 TW and may so be the case in RTW too.Also, you can force all the good factions to become allied through a script. They can stil attack you, but are your allies again forcefully after each turn.

[Siberian Wolf]

I have a question about "loose" formations for Citadel Guards and similar units. The "loose" formation is actually tighter, deliberate or not?

[Bardo]

It is deliberate. Those elite spearmen (like fountain guards or high noldor) do not have the special attribute (spear) that gives defense bonus against cavalry because this "spear" attribute also gives defense penalties againts infantry, and it would make these special units too powerful against horses and too weak against rest of units.
The idea of the tight formation is to give them more chances to survive cavalry charges. The perfect solution would be to use "shield wall" formation, but it is not available in alexander. The loose formation is not so important in those units because they already own high shield values against projectiles.
The main problem I see is that AI does not know how to handle it, and it will use this tight formation against projectiles and elephants/berserks, instead of using it against cavalry.

[Siberian Wolf]

Thanks for your response, the mod itself is very fun and polished. The only two things I find worth mentioning if you will ever be making another bugfix patch or something is: - Take a look at Cair Andros, maybe add a little land around the edges, so it doesn't crash when receiving reinforcements during sieges (from Gondor side) - Missing minor sound on SMap (baby born sound for event that has to do with honorific titles) Everything else is pretty perfect from what I gather (I'm playing as Gondor)

[Stath's]

Harad is not able to build roads at start and they don't appear in the building browser.

Will they be able to build any roads in the future, if (for example) they capture settlements, north to them?