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Thread: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

  1. #1

    Icon1 Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)


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    GAMEPLAY INFO
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    DIFFICULTY LEVELS

    We have tried to balance the mod so it is well balanced for any difficulty level, though I would like to explain the main differences:

    CAMPAIGN: It seems the main effect of higher levels is to make AI more aggressive against the human player, but I think the probability of allies attacking you is similar in all levels.

    BATTLE: It seems the effect of battle difficulty is just a bonus to attack: +4 at hard, and +8 at very hard.
    In battle, I suggest MEDIUM if this is your first campaign, because the mod already gives some bonuses to AI units (+2 to experience).

    The best way to choose the battle difficulty is to start a custom battle, with 12000 gold, flat land, choosing the same faction that you are going to play in campaign. Then play some battles in Medium, High, and Very high (or Easy), until you see the forces are even.

    I like to play VH/VH, but most of the testing for the mod was made at M/M, with large unit settings.

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    CAMPAIGN BALANCE

    There is a script that reduces the population to the minimum (400) when an enemy settlement is captured. It has a big impact on the campaign gameplay, because it forces players to wait many turns until they can start recruiting units consistently in the outer cities, and they must rely on the core regions to recruit most of the units.

    Many units require the appropriate resources to be recruited (for example horses, wargs, or trolls), and most factions can only recruit their elite units in their home regions.

    Some special units may appear randomly (5%) in certain cities (for the home faction) when there is a named character acting as governor, and the happiness in the city is at green level.
    * Urabhaya: trollman
    * Hobbiton: hobbit archer, hobbit militia
    * Minas·Tirith: gondor fountainguard
    * Fornost: gondor ranger dunedain
    * Nenuial: gondor ranger dunedain
    * Beorn: beorning
    * Barad-dur: battle trolls
    * Fangorn: ents

    In order to make the campaign more challenging, there are several scripts which give bonuses to the AI (a kind of cheating that players should be aware):
    * Extra armies for the main enemy factions, that use to appear during the initial turns of the campaign.
    * Extra money every turn (1000 gold), the double for the main enemy factions.
    * Units are recruited with 2 extra chevrons. Building costs and times are reduced (almost halved).
    * Garrison armies are replenish whenever a homeland city is being sieged.

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    SPECIAL VnVs

    Some traits introduce in the game new rules that you should know to play properly:

    * WOUNDS: When your general is wounded, you should send him to a settlement and keep him there until the wounds are healed. If the injured character moves or stays out of a city there is a chance that the wounds get worse (so he loses command and hit points). If the wounds reach the 3th level (seriously injured), he has a chance to gain the permanent trait "scarred" that reduces his influence progressively until the wounds are healed.
    Wounds are better healed in large cities, and better if the city has healing houses.
    This rule tries to avoid that players use always the same character for every battle.

    There is a special wound produced when you fight against a Nazgul. Dark wounds are harder to heal, and they can remove the movement points of the character if he doesn't reach a settlement soon.

    * CORRUPTION: When your character carries items which sum more than 25 burden points, he has a chance to gain a demoralized trait. The chance is higher if the burden points are more than 50 or 100.
    To counter this trait, the character must rest in a happy settlement or to reduce his burden points under 0.
    This rule tries to avoid that players give all the best items to the same character.

    The One Ring also causes a special corruption trait that has no going back. If the corruption of the Ring bearer reaches level 3 (Entranced by the Ring), all the other factions start declaring war on you (except if the Ring bearer is a hobbit).

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    UNIT BALANCE

    In lotr-tw, each unit type has its own characteristics, and sometimes they are hidden. I'll try to list the hidden parameters here so people can evaluate them properly:

    Spearmen:
    * Slow attack (Kill ratio ~ 0.6)
    * They use to have more mass or closer formations to stand better against charges.
    * 2 handed spearmen: they get the "spear" attribute, a big bonus to defense against cavalry, and a similar penalty against other infantry.
    * Spearmen with shield: they get a plain bonus to attack against cavalry. They are vulnerable to cavalry charges, but they do not get penalties against other infantry.

    2 Handed:
    * Fast attack (Kill ratio ~ 0.8)
    * They do not have "armour piercing", but 2 handed animation is faster than anyone else, so they kill quicker than other units, even if their attack is lower.
    * They use to have higher charge and mass values than standard infantry, and at the same time looser formations.

    Infantry:
    * They use to have the better balance between attack, defence/shield and killing speed.
    * Swordsmen: Normal attack (Kill ratio ~ 0.7)
    * Daggermen: Slow attack (Kill ratio ~ 0.6)

    Missiles:
    * Units with arrows have more range and more ammunition, compared to thrown weapons, but they are also more expensive.
    * Thrown weapons (like javelins and axes) have an special attribute (rebound value) that makes them more effective than arrows against units with shield.
    * Arrows and thrown weapons are equally effective against elephant units (unlike vanilla RTW).

    Cavalry:
    * Charge values are lower than in vanilla RTW, but in this mod there are no units with bonuses against charging cavalry, so charges are still very powerful.
    The best way to use the cavalry is to charge and retreat, keeping the horses always in the move, because they do not last long while engaged in melee.
    * Units with spears are a bit better while charging, and units with swords use to survive a bit better in melee.
    * The mass of horses is not enough to break close formations. They are better used to surround the enemy, or to attack missile units.
    Note that armoured archers in this mod are not killed easily, it is better to use cavalry with heavy armour against them.
    * Heavier cavalry has more mass and more charge, but lower speed.
    Heavy or medium cavalry can not catch mounted archers. You need light cavalry (or Wargs) to eliminate them.
    * Rohan cavalry is the only one with wedge formation, that can be used to attack units in the 2nd line of the enemy army, causing huge damage to the units in the 1st line when they charge through them.

    Chariots:
    * One chariot alone has not much power, but several units of chariots together can beat any kind of cavalry, and can be used to slaughter loose infantry units.
    * If you place your chariots behind the enemy formation and you move them close to the back of the soldiers, the razors of the chariots will kill many soldiers and will cause panic to the others. So, instead of attacking the infantry, keep your chariots moving close to their backs and they will be more effective.

    Creatures:
    * Trolls, Ents, and Berserkers are powerful in melee, but vulnerable to missiles. They have penalties to attack other creatures, so they are not very effective to kill each other.
    * Mumaks and Fellbeasts are powerful while charging, but as other cavalry, they are vulnerable when they stand in melee.
    * Mumaks, Trolls, and Ents can break gates in a siege battle, but there is a bug that prevents Fellbeasts from doing it.

    Detailed info about unit stats, as well as an automatic cost calculator, can be found at:
    ...\alexander\lotrtw\Lotrtw_Tablas.xls
    Last edited by Bardo; April 03, 2018 at 11:17 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    Updated first post with Readme from incoming version 3.0

  3. #3

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    before I start I want to thank the team for their nice work,the new version is great most faction have been rebalanced so you wont have an OP factions who dominates all others,even the free people have gotten a boost now that they have the FOTR on their side.here is some issues that the team could take a closer look on in order to make the version even better:

    this version unlike the last one doesn't have the forced alliance script...which is bothering me,I don't like it when the dwarfs steam roll Dale instead of attacking the goblins,or when the haradrims back stab Mordor.
    for some reason no faction really expand in the right direction,Icenguard is sending his forces north,the silvans have gained the upper hand..seems like their enjoying their new OP BG's :/ . other then this the mod is great and I'm enjoying it although I'll have to use the forced diplomacy much more often :/ please tell me what you think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    So you have reached the "NANANANANA I AM NOT LIZTENING, YOU ARE WRONG" phase. Just a couple of posts back you were bragging about how the Persians lost because of their inferiority, now you're saying you don't care?
    BOM to Kakabis
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=484498
    my AAR, please check it out

  4. #4

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    There is an optional script that you have to activate manually, if you like it. But it was also unactive by default in the previous versions:

    In file \alexander\lotrtw\data\scripts\show_me\background_script.txt
    ;Modify "set_counter blindalliances 0" to "set_counter blindalliances 1" to activate blind alliances between the good factions:
    I personally do not like this script. If the AI decides to attack you, it will keep trying every turn, and you will see how the alliance is restored and then broken every turn. In this case, I suggest to send a diplomat (you can recruit them in this version), and to force a protectorate so they do not attack you again.
    When in diplomatic scroll, click question mark (help button), click advisor portrait, and then click show me how button.
    Then they will accept any offer you made.

    This is the typical expansion of the AI that I use to see in my games, and I personally like it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo
    Or this:
    Quote Originally Posted by HunterAlpha1 View Post

  5. #5

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    thank's for your reply Bardo
    [QUOTE=Bardo;12706904]There is an optional script that you have to activate manually, if you like it. But it was also unactive by default in the previous versions:
    It was!? oh I didn't notice,as far as can remember the esterlings and haradrims kept attacking mordor in the previus versions but allied with them in the very next turn :/


    I personally do not like this script. If the AI decides to attack you, it will keep trying every turn, and you will see how the alliance is restored and then broken every turn. In this case, I suggest to send a diplomat (you can recruit them in this version), and to force a protectorate so they do not attack you again.
    but if I force them to be my protectorate wouldn't that ruin their progress by giving me all their income or so???



    This is the typical expansion of the AI that I use to see in my games, and I personally like it:

    Or this:
    I C :O it seems like factions are pretty much doing what they should in ur campaign.... then what can be the problem with mine?

    anyways thanks 4 the help

    P.S: oh about the blind alliance what about the evil factions??? my main concern is mordor and haradrim AND easterlings....
    Last edited by the persian Immortal; March 26, 2013 at 07:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    So you have reached the "NANANANANA I AM NOT LIZTENING, YOU ARE WRONG" phase. Just a couple of posts back you were bragging about how the Persians lost because of their inferiority, now you're saying you don't care?
    BOM to Kakabis
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=484498
    my AAR, please check it out

  6. #6

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    The script unactive by default is to force alliance between AI and human player.
    The script to force alliances between AI and AI is active by default, and it should keep Mordor allied with Harads and Easterlings.

    As I remember it, if you create a protectorate they will give to you his money only once, just when you create the protectorate. After that, they will not expand much and they will not attack you, so they will act very similar to the lore of most "good" factions.

    The behavior of the AI is too dependant on the results of the first turns, maybe they were unexpected results in your game.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    Hi guys, this is really VERY great mod, now with these new cities.. I've only one problem and it is, that Rohan is really almost unplayable, because the immunity of uruks formations' against horses (especially against horse charges) was improved a little bit too much..

  8. #8

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by vonSchmetterling View Post
    Hi guys, this is really VERY great mod, now with these new cities.. I've only one problem and it is, that Rohan is really almost unplayable, because the immunity of uruks formations' against horses (especially against horse charges) was improved a little bit too much..
    Yea, I noticed potential for this too while looking over the unit values of the final version. Rohan cavalry seem pretty weak, is it just to balance the inherent bonuses they get by being mounted troops?

    Also, the Urk-hai pikemen have base attack of 8 + phalanx + long pike + warcry and very good armour values too which I think potentially makes them the most powerful unit in the mod, I'd be interested to know the reasoning behind this if one of the devs cares to comment.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    Also thank you very much for adding some mercenary units, now Third Age is really in a shadow, at last for me

  10. #10

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    Most of the changes to unit stats are based on the tests we make online. There have been more than 10 versions for multiplayer since v2.08 until this v3.0, where we finally achieved the desired balance for most factions.
    We have played dozens of battles online with this latest v3.0, and I did not feel the need to change any stat to any unit, so I really hope this can be the definitive balance for the units.

    The more you play online, the more you realize how powerful is the cavalry. 20 cavalry units can win against any army of uruks controlled by the AI, because you can charge with several units against one unit of uruks, until is destroyed, and then to chose the next one. In my opinion, the best isengar unit to stop the cavalry are the wargs, not the pikemen, because pikes are too slow to catch the horses where they are charging.

    I agree the pikemen are one of the most powerful units in game, maybe a bit overpowered against infantry, but in the same way than mumaks are powerful for haradrims, the chariots for Rhun, or the archers for the elves.
    Pikemen is a special unit for Isengard, with pros and cons, being very powerful in frontal combat, but weak if surrounded.

    I must say that Rohan cavalry is specially powerful because their wedge formation. When cavalry charges in wedge formation against a unit in the 2nd line of the enemy formation, they will break through the 1st line, and they will inflict a lot of damage until they reach the unit in the 2nd line. This ability allows rohan cavalry to break box formations, and I find it very important to discourage this kind of formations.

    One of the latest changes we made for v3.0 was to increase the cost of rohan cavalry, because it was hard to win against them, even with an army of isengard and lots of pikemen.
    You may use the historical battle "Fords of Isen" to compare cavalry vs pikemen. I'm not very good with cavalry, and I find it easy to win with rohan in VH level.

    I'm glad to talk about unit balance, and I agree that pikemen could be a bit overpowered in campaign, but trust me that cavalry is not underpowered at all. It might look this way because cavalry is the unit type that AI handles the worst, and because RTW players are used to spearmen much more deadly against horses.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    The script unactive by default is to force alliance between AI and human player.
    cool script...that should fix the problems I have with dwarfs while playing as dale TNX
    The script to force alliances between AI and AI is active by default, and it should keep Mordor allied with Harads and Easterlings.
    then sth's clearly wrong with my game,cuz the haradrims are now besieging the city of emyn arnen (IIRC) for 3 turns now and are also attacking mordorian armies :/


    The behavior of the AI is too dependent on the results of the first turns, maybe they were unexpected results in your game.
    I've just noticed that the second screenshot you posted in your last post the mordorians were expanding like they do in my campaign,it seems like they have given up their front against gondor and are expanding north which is VERY annoying the gondorias are taking minas morgol without any problems so is Icengard (in my campaign) they are expanding north instead of talking the defenseless rohirim towns :/ :/ what the hell's wrong!? the dwarfs and silvan used to attack the massive forces of the goblins but now the silvans are expanding east instead what's the problem? is there a way to fix this ? please say yes
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    So you have reached the "NANANANANA I AM NOT LIZTENING, YOU ARE WRONG" phase. Just a couple of posts back you were bragging about how the Persians lost because of their inferiority, now you're saying you don't care?
    BOM to Kakabis
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=484498
    my AAR, please check it out

  12. #12

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Most of the changes to unit stats...
    Ah, well this does make sense. Thanks Bardo!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    I didn't know where to post, there seems not to be a "Questions" thread, but this one says comments so maybe it'll be okay.

    I'd like to ask about two units: dwarven warhammers (? those guys with hammers, said to be modeled after Dains troops from the Iron Hills) and dwarves with horn bows. What happened to them? I saw them as a WIP units and really would like to see them in-game. Why were they scrapped?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    I think because Wlesmana didnt sent Bardo the models. Same thing for the arrow animation.
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  15. #15

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    any chance the team can add this to the mod ? they all seem good

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...%29-1-2-update



    also any chance to solve this issue ?

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ood-battle-lol


    also can we have a simple script that just reveals all the faction boarders on the mini map for say once every 10 turns ? i want to know whats going on with all the factions in game so i can aid my allies if needed and im sure news still travel in middle earth lol
    Last edited by whitewolfmxc; April 01, 2013 at 09:00 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    also can we have a simple script that just reveals all the faction boarders on the mini map for say once every 10 turns ? i want to know whats going on with all the factions in game so i can aid my allies if needed and im sure news still travel in middle earth lol
    Just use the "toggle_fow" cheat on the console.
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  17. #17

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    What you describe is exactly the way the palantirs work in this mod... just capture one of them. Another option is to recruit more spies and diplomats.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    Would be possible to make Dale a Dwarven protectorade from the begining by scripting? In my 3 campaigns I've started, Dwarven attack me at the very early game, no matter what I do... (I don't know of it's possible to play with a faction that is protectorade by a major).

    Tks

  19. #19

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    You can make it the other way around, using the ForceDiplomacy cheat, send your diplomat to the dwarves and in the diplomatic scroll press "?" on the top right, then press the "Show_me how" buttom on the advisor, and request the dwarves to be your client kingdom, they will accept anything with that cheat.

    You can also activate the Blind Alliances script, i -think- it also deals with the Dale-Dwarves alliance.

    The Blind Alliances SCRIPT forces every good faction to become allied, in case the AI broke those alliances, at the end of every turn. For example if the Dale AI attacks the Dwarven Clans, they may win a few field battles, and even siege one of the Dwarven cities, BUT they can only do that on the turn they declared the war, because when the turn passes PEACE will be restored between the two factions. The script is good for immersion and realism since no one wants to see such wars. To Activate the Script:
    -Open file "/alexander/lotrtw/data/scripts/show_me/background_script.txt.

    -Modify line "set_counter blindalliances 0" to "set_counter blindalliances 1"
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  20. #20

    Default Re: Comments, Suggestions and Gameplay Issues (v3.0)

    I have had several situations where a lone Nazgul on a fell beast will attack a city. The beast seems to do a small bit of damage to the gate (8% one time), but it cannot do more. I've only seen it with Mordor cities, so I don't know if the problem persists in other types of cities as well.

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