Critique

[k/t]

Gigantus said they tried it in V1 but it added almost 3 minutes to the AI's turn. It's worth a shot anyway.

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

They're the best! This mod really isn't at all for someone that wants an arcadey attention deficit disorder catering, vanilla on crack mod. There's a few mods out there for that.

[Gigantus]

Patch 2 will give every settlement a base level barrack, thereby opening the free upkeep slots for the base units. That should (and apparently does) help the economy.
'Carl the Taxman' worked fairly well in version 1, but it had a major flaw: due to it's insane number of monitors per faction it added three minutes to the turn calculations which was unacceptable. I wasn't able to simplify Carl's script (believe me I tried) and we had to abandon it. Carl had about 4 times the monitors of the current script, stretched over 8000 lines.
In comparison: the 'Kalendar' monitor which houses 201 historic_events is just that - ONE monitor. It doesn't slow the calculations perceptibly.

France and Spain are not meant to be defeated...

"The map is unclear and ridiculously fragmented, even for the period."
I don't think you are aware how ridiculously fragmented the map of the time actually was. We have taken care to represent the actual fragmentation to a great degree - but even then it is still a far cry from the actual situation. I am sure Monti can give you a suitable historical map reflecting that. Here is one I found:

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

Yep, that's ridiculously fragmented, alright.

[sheba021]

How do I tone down my armies turning back on me when they have no general? I can't even move armies over the map without them.

[Gigantus]

Inaccessible Forts - every faction has one (Jagdschloss) which is used to house the heir if the faction is played by the AI. I am not aware of inaccessible settlements.
Diplomatic Enclave - the map is simply to vast to send a diplomat around trying to make contact, hence we provided he enclosure.
Turkish Enclave - doesn't exist, but the spawn is too frequent and too strong. This matter is addressed in the coming patch

[Mausolos of Caria]

First of all: The Map is so immersive and impressive that I can't see how anyone would criticize it. To have certain provinces like a diocese split into several parts all over the map must have been a very intense work and I love it. And thanks for explaining the function of the Jagdschloss, I wasn't aware of that before.

As for the diplomats in the mountains, it is really helpful and was they are near Vienna one can really imagine ambassadors from abroad would have met there regularly, so it's not even unhistorical.

My only problem is the economy, especially for the AI, because it's not nice to see them all being bankrupt Also, bigger factions played by the human player have extreme money issues as well which are a bit exaggerated. But little factions (say 6 provinces or less) make for a very good campaign.

[Gigantus]

The economy is getting a nice boost by the adding of barracks to the settlements - free upkeep from round one, results have been encouraging.

[Mausolos of Caria]

The economy is getting a nice boost by the adding of barracks to the settlements - free upkeep from round one, results have been encouraging.

That sounds good indeed, especially for those factions who start with bigger armies (like France). When can we expect the next patch? I know modders don't like this question, just wondering if you only just started with the patch (I guess you have because the first patch has only been released very recently).

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

That sounds good indeed, especially for those factions who start with bigger armies (like France). When can we expect the next patch? I know modders don't like this question, just wondering if you only just started with the patch (I guess you have because the first patch has only been released very recently).

He said likely 24 hours about 12 hours ago, so probably within the next day or two. This team is quick with their fixes!

[MKeogh]

The economy is getting a nice boost by the adding of barracks to the settlements - free upkeep from round one, results have been encouraging.

Sounds like a step in the right direction. Any thought to giving each city a basic market as well? Merchant income is very important in this mod and the CAI's inability to recruit merchants due to it not being able to afford even a basic market is also killing it economically.

It's not outrageous criticism to say that the CAI is really, really struggling with this map and economic engine even on Very Hard. It's a shame. The potential of this campaign is immense. This mod offers the possibility of a truly deep stategy game within the TW engine. Unfortunately, the CAI is not capable of presenting much of a challenge. M2TW's CAI was never any great shakes, but this mod makes things even tougher on it.

Due to money woes, it can't develop or garrison its cities. Thus, it can't build ships, merchants, or religious agents. Plus, cities that are culturally undeveloped and without a garrison are susceptible to revolts. AI nations lose quite a few cities to revolts which results in them being even weaker. Although I enjoy playing within the large map and restricted economic engine, it eventually feels that I'm hitting an inert punching-bag that is incapable of resisting.

Some criticisms:

I'm not a fan of the "people in flight" mechanic. The biggest weakness of the both RTW and M2TW is that there are too many battles. The biggest reason I usually quit my campaigns is because I get burned-out fighting battles. It's just gets boring and repetitive fighting and winning battle after battle. The "people in flight" mechanic just adds to the tedium. You fight hard to eliminate an AI nation and then "pow" they're back with several magic stacks. It's just tiresome. I always liked the re-emerging faction mechanic of the original STW and MTW and its later iteration in ETW/NTW/STW2 because it happens through a natural rebellion. On the other hand, the instantanous appearance of several doom-stacks with the "people in flight" mechanic is gamey to the extreme. Plus, this is your "reward" for destroying an enemy? Bigger, tougher armies than what you faced prior to taking their last town?

Another issue is countries having such large starting armies at game's beginning that they instantly go bankrupt after Turn 1. The player can work around it by either disbanding units, quickly blitzing and looting, or taking advantage of free garrison slots in minor cities. The CAI can't do any of that so it sinks hopelessly into the red. Any thought to cutting down those large starting armies? Poland-Lithuania's situation is especially grim.

It's good to hear that the endless stream of Turk doom-stacks will be addressed. With 1.x the Turks were a mixed bag, I had one campaign where they gobbled-up a chunk of the map, but there were other games where they would just sit at the bottom of the map apparently confused due to the nearest cities being controlled by rebels rather than Austrians.

I really do think this mod's potential is immense and do appreciate how much hard-work and dedication has gone into it. However, it's a bit undercooked right now. (And that's not even addressing its myriad of stability issues which is a whole other ballgame.)

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Some criticisms:

I'm not a fan of the "people in flight" mechanic. The biggest weakness of the both RTW and M2TW is that there are too many battles. The biggest reason I usually quit my campaigns is because I get burned-out fighting battles. It's just gets boring and repetitive fighting and winning battle after battle. The "people in flight" mechanic just adds to the tedium. You fight hard to eliminate an AI nation and then "pow" they're back with several magic stacks. It's just tiresome.

Others find small battles easy to win but fighting a horde something of a challenge, especially as the horde moves and is not just a big garrison waiting for you to raise a big enough army to eliminate it. If you do not fancy battles, autoresolve. But what if someone fancied battles and you only got little easy ones?

In any case, the biggest problem about M2TW is not too many battles (first time I hear that) but too easy battles - that seems indeed a common complaint.

Secondly, some factions did indeed spawn something close to a horde during the war when taken out, and especially the Palatinate, who maybe also ought to get one. Basically you could say that the first part of the war was about the Kaiser's efforts to beat the horde generated when the Palatinate was destroyed. Mansfeld and the other Protestant generals were bankrolled by England, France and Denmark and supported by some of the Protestant princes to help Frederick get back some of his lands or at least some lands or at least his title. The Spanish also launched a campaign in Switzerland early in the war to open up the Spanish Road that was being threatened by Protestant opposition. So these sorts of things were realistic responses to a certain turn of events. They are not some kind of afterthought. As for the Turks, at this time they were caught in a war in Persia and there is no reason they should be a more significant intruder into Germany than the Spanish, French or Swedes. Moreover, as Monti said, countries like Sweden, Poland, France and Spain cannot be imagined as conquerable in the context of this war. They should be able to come back with bigger armies, if the armies on the map were defeated.

[MKeogh]

Others find small battles easy to win but fighting a horde something of a challenge, especially as the horde moves and is not just a big garrison waiting for you to raise a big enough army to eliminate it. If you do not fancy battles, autoresolve. But what if someone fancied battles and you only got little easy ones?

In any case, the biggest problem about M2TW is not too many battles (first time I hear that) but too easy battles - that seems indeed a common complaint.

First time you've ever heard of the issue of too many battles in RTW or M2TW? Did you follow the development of ETW with its promise of "fewer, but more decisive battles" in comparison to RTW and M2TW? And have you ever played Third Age: Total War, Stainless Steel, or Roma Surrectum all of which feature eventual "stack spam" with the player often fighting multiple battles every single turn? Fighting and defeating four armies made-up of Rhunnic light infantry and javilineers in one turn gets a bit tiresome especially when you know you're going to be doing it again the very next turn. The problem of "too many battles," which is often tied-in with the issue of "stack-spam," is very well-known in both RTW and M2TW.

I admit that 1648 certainly doesn't suffer from the problem of "too many battles." That's because the CAI is so passive due to its economic woes that it hardly does ANYTHING except sit still and lose its cities to either revolts or to whatever nation I'm playing. It's the extreme opposite of "too many battles." Extremes, such as too many battles or too few, are never fun. I don't want to see 1648 suffering from "stack spam," but it would be nice if its CAI showed some "life." I hope one day this mod can achieve a nice balance between those two extremes.

I'm sorry, but I don't like the "people in flight" feature. It just adds more stuff to what is already an over-stuffed mod. You know sometimes "more" doesn't mean "better," but it just means "more." The feature is also just plain silly: Mansfeld's army didn't spring-up out of thin air when Spain and Maximilian overran the Palatinate. Also, it works as a perverse disincentive: why should I bother taking that last town when I know it will result in a magical army popping-up out of the ground? It's better to keep that crippled faction alive rather than having several doom-stacks wandering aimlessly around the map.

I can understand the historical rational for using the horde feature, but from a strictly gameplaying viewpoint it's a silly feature and a poor substitute for either a CAI capable of handling this mod's map/economy and the re-emerging faction feature of other TW games. I certainly don't expect it to be yanked, but just wanted to let my thoughts be known.

[Monguntiacum]

You`re right, i underrated the struggle of the CAI with the economy/big armies and unrest of cities. The basic barrack helps much to CAI, also i like the idea of market and maybe the tavern in every city. i gave factions big armies to avoid rushing and help ai factions to hold against aggressive players, but i guess i overshoot the mark

The horde/people in flight we gave to:
spain, poland, sweden and france because they ´re mighty factions with regions "beyond" our map, so i think its unrealistic, when e.g. i kicked frenchies out of Reims and Metz, i conquered France, no when i plunder Reims, my westfrankish brothers will send a big army to kick my ass
ottomans and transylvania, because they´re should plunder and annoy the emperor
bayreuth, trier, baden and hesse, because they´re very weak factions, horde would help AI to survive "litty adverity"

[Mausolos of Caria]

tavern in every city.

Doesn't a tavern give bad traits, though? But I appreciate the ideas with the barrack and the market. If you want to help the AI with public order to avoid all the rebellions early on, perhaps a magistrate instead of a tavern would do?

[k/t]

I think doing things the way Deyy did with his Real Rebellion Mod is better for the small factions.

To prevent the player from rushing too much early on in the game, a garrison script would be better than giving all factions large armies whose upkeep the AI can't deal with.

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

Yeah, a combination garrison script (not full stacks every time a city is sieged, though) and faction resurrection like in Deyy's mod would be nice. "A people in flight" could still happen, but on a smaller scale instead of a sudden onrush of 10 stacks.

[Monguntiacum]

Do you have an idea, what amount of work is scripting a garrison script for 199 regions? Thats slavery

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

Do you have an idea, what amount of work is scripting a garrison script for 199 regions? Thats slavery

Perhaps only capitols, then you're down to under 30.

EDIT: What the heck, when the next patch is released, I'll give it a go and add a small garrison script for all the regions. Don't be surprised if they all spawn very very similar looking half stacks, though.

[Monguntiacum]

some capitals (of weak factions) have already garrison scripts. but i do not know what effect garrison script monitors for 199 regions would have for turn change time...