Critique

[PikeStance]

Ok,

I downloaded today. I decided to play as Hesse- Kassel. I played for one hour, but it was very uneventful. I surprise to see that in the 17th century Hesse didn't have a single musketeer unit. I also have little or no money to buy much of anything. For a war game there isn't much of a war- am I missing something with the concept of the mod?

[k/t]

You have to build up first.

[twmodder]

Are you playing this mod for the first time? I think playing it for one hour is not enough to discover it, especially when you're playing a campaign which has to develop itself over many turns. Its meant to be longterm-entertainment, like any other TW mod.

[Gigantus]

You will need to plan ahead and get first your economy going - money is going to be tight in this version. Spend your initial time building up alliances and trade agreements as well.
Musketeers will be available at developed barracks.

[PikeStance]

I do not have a problem with a "long- term" development, however with the start date being 1681 (eve of the start pf the 30 years war) I though I had to 'man up' and get ready to rumble for the impending fight. Apparently, this is not the case.

Follow- up question: why 1618? Granted the Bohemian Revolt started the 30 years war, but it could have just as easily (lack of a better word) started prior to 1618. Also, what thought was put into the inclusion of the latter stages of the 80 years war. The Mod suggested that the Dutch would be too easy to play- am I being presumptuous to state that the 80 years war is not interwoven into the mod?

[Note: any suggestion that I am not happy is because of my overzealous to fight a pike and shot battle]

[BullGod]

Hi, I've decided to use this thread to throw in my own critique:
The first two impressions I have are: campaign UI is pretty much unreadable. It is probably because of the painting being the background of the main campaign panel. At first I didn't even noticed that something was there- and I mean city icons - unit icons are little bit more distinctive. I would suggest making this background less... sharp, distinct. It can be blurred, darkened, lightened, whatever - to make icons stand out a little more.

Battles: why so quick? I've had this impresion with newest TW games that CA is making this game more and more arcadish, but it seems I forgot how it was before. In my opinion most units run around battlefield a little bit too quickly (especially light infantry), melee is a little bit too fast and arquebusers shoot from such absurd distances that I don't believe WW2 snipers would risk those shots. I guess it has to be this way to allow for at least couple of volleys before infantry closes and as I mentioned they are quite fast. In my opinion it would make this game more interesting if it would be toned down a little - units slowed down to at lest 50% of their current speed, missile range shortened, etc. But this is a matter of taste I guess and I think I ought to learn how to mod Medieval2 in order to enjoy this mod
Other than that it looks like a great work. Map looks very interesting. I like those educational movies you've incorporated into the mod, although I don't understand too much

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

In my opinion most units run around battlefield a little bit too quickly (especially light infantry), melee is a little bit too fast and arquebusers shoot from such absurd distances that I don't believe WW2 snipers would risk those shots. I guess it has to be this way to allow for at least couple of volleys before infantry closes and as I mentioned they are quite fast.

Actually the most unrealistic thing is that M2 BAI has armies run left, right and centre like a bunch of barbarians. This is especially a pain for the period of pike and shot formations. Armies at this period historically fought in a more professional way and the pike and shot formations, when they decided to move forward, had to do so in relation also to the other formations. Moreover, they marched in step, so that the musketeers could put in shots and rotate as their formation marched forward. It has been estimated that pike and shot formations moved by an average of 1 meter per minute. M2 units instead run like Usain Bolt on amphetamines. There is no modding tool to stop them doing that other than slowing the movement points in the edu, but even the slightest decrease in speed makes them look like they walk in slow motion. Because they do not take smaller steps or fewer steps, they just move in slow motion while still making long strides.

The fact also is that muskets had in principle a range of up to 300m. They were sometimes fired at that range, in fact they were usually fired at that range, and the range was called "musket shot range". You will often find in contemporary writings the expression "to within musket shot" as the point at which a battle would start. Of course musket fire at this range was extremely inaccurate (though a few men would get killed even so), but it is fairly inaccurate also in this game as accuracy decreases with distance.

The main problem, from the viewpoint of a game using a Medieval style AI, is that the computer player has no knowledge of pike and shot formations. M2 BAI was not made for pike and shot formations. Tercios do not advance at a pace of 1m per minute, allowing the musketeers to take turns to fire. Instead the pikemen charge headlong, getting in the way of the computer player's musketeers. There is currently no modding tool to stop this. With the longer range, once the pikemen have marched off and are well on their way, the field is clear for the computer's musketeers to continue to fire. At least they have some effect in the battle now, as it suits this period, whereas previously they were practically a waste of money especially for the computer player, indeed like in most other mods. If the ranges were shortened, the computer player would be at a disadvantage in many ways.

There were many other considerations and we tested shorter ranges and altered other factors using a variety of BAI mods. The current style made for hard battles without being too unhistorical. If you want more realism, so do we. For that we would need a BAI that does not exist.

By the way, we also tried changing the defense factors. The current numbers as I remember them were sometimes changed from the previous version. The real problem is how you give the computer player's musketeers a chance to contribute - and changing the defense factors of units will not do that.

[Hanti]

(...)
The main problem, from the viewpoint of a game using a Medieval style AI, is that the computer player has no knowledge of pike and shot formations. M2 BAI was not made for pike and shot formations. Tercios do not advance at a pace of 1m per minute, allowing the musketeers to take turns to fire. Instead the pikemen charge headlong, getting in the way of the computer player's musketeers. There is currently no modding tool to stop this. With the longer range, once the pikemen have marched off and are well in their way, the field is clear for the computer's musketeers to continue to fire. At least they have some effect in the battle now, as it suits this period, whereas previously they were practically a waste of money especially for the computer player, indeed like in most other mods. If the ranges were shortened, the computer player would be at a disadvantage in many ways.

There were many other considerations and we tested shorter ranges and altered other factors using a variety of BAI mods. The current style made for hard battles without being too unhistorical. If you want more realism, so do we. For that we would need a BAI that does not exist.

By the way, we also tried changing the defense factors. The current numbers as I remember them were sometimes changed from the previous version. The real problem is how you give the computer player's musketeers a chance to contribute - and changing the defense factors of units will not do that.

What if movement would be cut by half and lethality of missiles cut by half? Units would move in more realistic way and missiles would kill less in one volley.
Something could be done for sure, as for now we have great mod with snipers (musketeers) and commandos (pikemen).

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

What if movement would be cut by half and lethality of missiles cut by half? Units would move in more realistic way and missiles would kill less in one volley.
Something could be done for sure, as for now we have great mod with snipers (musketeers) and commandos (pikemen).

In the previous version of 1648 and occasionally during development of this version, movement of pikemen was 10-20% slower. Unfortunately, this disadvantages the computer player, because melee units are the ones M2 BAI uses best while cavalry units are normally the ones that give the human player the most advantage. Not only that but if there is a disparity between musketeers and pikemen in terms of movement speed, it can be exploited by the player by taking his musketeers quickly to the flanks of engaged enemy pikemen. And friendly musketeers can escape too easily when attacked by pikemen whereas in actual fact the weight of a musket plus shot and powder equaled or exceeded the weight of a pike. Now you could make them both slow which would still leave the enemy musketeers at the mercy of your cavalry. One solution would be to make also cavalry half as fast. I.e. make everything move half as fast. That would require a whole set of new animations for all types of units. Would everyone like that?

As for the cannon, it is not possible to have stationary cannon in M2. Or rather it is, just that they would never be firing.

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

Everything half as fast would certainly seem more "realistic", and very different than any other Med2 mod, but one would have to wonder how often the player will be clicking the X2 speed button out of sheer boredom at the slowness of everything. To be honest, I'd love to see it done as a proof of concept, but I'm not sure if that would be good implemented, and it's also a lot of work to do.

There's simply no possible way to accurately and beautifully model 17th century warfare in a game designed to emulate 12th century warfare. A lot of these "strange" decisions made by the mod team have logical reasoning behind them, to sort of cheat around bringing accuracy into the game.

IMO, there should be a post with a listing of what certain decisions were made for, kind of like the FAQ, but gameplay specific. For instance, saying "Dragoon type units are fast to emulate hopping on and off a horse during the battle, just pretend they're there.
Pikes do X because Y.
Generals have sniper pistols because they're supposed to stay in the back." etc.

[$Arminius1]

For me it is most important to diminish the effect of gunners. "arquebus_shot" is to much accurate against units - I lowered it to 0.03. I lowered artellery accuracy to 0.05. Therefore pikemen need not to move so fast. Most of them are alive reaching the enemy in close range.

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

There is no modding tool to stop them doing that other than slowing the movement points in the edu, but even the slightest decrease in speed makes them look like they walk in slow motion. Because they do not take smaller steps or fewer steps, they just move in slow motion while still making long strides.

I believe the walking/running animations are editable, so pikemen could feasibly march in something almost resembling lockstep. This would be a lot of work, but I THINK it's possible within the constrains of the engine. At least I've seen mods with fantasy creatures that seem to have their own stride animations, so perhaps it'd be possible.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

In my opinion most units run around battlefield a little bit too quickly (especially light infantry)

Here you probably meant the dragoons at the flanks. Unlike in Empire where dragoons can dismount and remount their horses, M2 has no such possibility. It was not meant for 17th C battles of course. Therefore, as in For King or Country, dragoons are shown minus their horses. Their horses were second quality, so when facing cavalry they fought on foot rather than flee or countercharge. When approached by infantry, especially pikemen, they will instead retreat very quickly, as again they would historically riding their old horses. They could also move up to cover cavalry quicker than ordinary musketeers. They were often used to cover friendly cavalry with musket fire or to ambush enemy cavalry. All this they do fairly well most of the time the way they have been set up.

[PikeStance]

I would have to agree with Bulldog.

The background ought to be darkened in my opinion; sometimes, less is more.

I decided to play a custom battle to get a feel for how the battle would go. Brutal would be the word I would use to describe it. The morale is set really high. There were some units with less than 5 men still fighting. Also, artillery moved insanely fast. With Imperial Splendour, early artillery are fixed. This is because they would use oxen to place the cannons and then leave them there. My guys in this battle was rolling that huge cannon around like it was made of plastic. I know some people like Darthmod/ arcade style battles, but I prefer historical accuracy. I offer to do a submod, but I am still searching for the perfect formula with Empire, so I am not sure I would be much help.

All and all, it is a well crafted game. The rendering of the men is first rate. I look forward to the next opportunity to play the mod again.

[Fuzzibo]

First: Congratulations for this Mod. It works far better than Version 1, especially the Roundcalculations are faster. But I agree with Bulldog, too. The Musketeers are a bit too overpowered now and the Troops moving a bit too fast. Also there is a little bug on the wonderfull walls: there is some kind of obstacle infront of the doors, so the units will stuck there instead of moving out. But you mentioned allready, that the walls are a bit buggy for now, so its no big problem. Just a bit laborious :-)
Good Luck with your other mods!

[Monguntiacum]

We have discussed at length in the team, the Musketeers. We have decided to equip the Musketeers with a very high range. Following reason: In the 1.0 the AI ​​has used the Musketeers with a short range as spearthrowing skirmishers. Far ahead of the lines, there, they were destroyed by horsemen and pikemen. Shoot only one time. Moreover, the establishment of the army was chaotic at the AI army.
Sure, the high range is unrealistic. But it helps the AI to act better. Moreover, the losses by musket fire at the pikemen are to be accepted, since the mass reached the enemy lines and go into battle thanks to the high morale.
Also the fast speed of the units is a consequence of the muskets. if the units are slower, they get destroyed by canons and muskets.

The problem is simple, M2 is not Empire. We must do something "creative" to generate exciting battles/campaigns

[Teutonic]

We have discussed at length in the team, the Musketeers. We have decided to equip the Musketeers with a very high range. Following reason: In the 1.0 the AI ​​has used the Musketeers with a short range as spearthrowing skirmishers. Far ahead of the lines, there, they were destroyed by horsemen and pikemen. Shoot only one time. Moreover, the establishment of the army was chaotic at the AI army.
Sure, the high range is unrealistic. But it helps the AI to act better. Moreover, the losses by musket fire at the pikemen are to be accepted, since the mass reached the enemy lines and go into battle thanks to the high morale.
Also the fast speed of the units is a consequence of the muskets. if the units are slower, they get destroyed by canons and muskets.

The problem is simple, M2 is not Empire. We must do something "creative" to generate exciting battles/campaigns

Lol, in the OiM 2 mod that's what I did. I edited the EDU so that the musket range is longer for these reasons. I also increased the defense values of all units to prolong fighting, lessen the arcade style feeling to battles. I'll increase the defense values here too, once I see how battles are in 1648_2. Now I'm bloody exhausted after my stupidity had me trying for 2 days to install the mod. Which I managed. Finally.

[PikeStance]

We have discussed at length in the team, the Musketeers. We have decided to equip the Musketeers with a very high range. Following reason: In the 1.0 the AI ​​has used the Musketeers with a short range as spearthrowing skirmishers. Far ahead of the lines, there, they were destroyed by horsemen and pikemen. Shoot only one time. Moreover, the establishment of the army was chaotic at the AI army.
Sure, the high range is unrealistic. But it helps the AI to act better. Moreover, the losses by musket fire at the pikemen are to be accepted, since the mass reached the enemy lines and go into battle thanks to the high morale.
Also the fast speed of the units is a consequence of the muskets. if the units are slower, they get destroyed by canons and muskets.

The problem is simple, M2 is not Empire. We must do something "creative" to generate exciting battles/campaigns

Thanks for your response. I do have some curious question based on my unfamiliarity of the tables specific to MW2 game.
Is it possible to decrease the accuracy of weapons at long distances? Another feature in Empire that I am not sure about MW2 is in Empire, we have a fatigue table that allows us to decrease the accuracy as they become exhausted. If this is possible to adjust you may not have to have a high morale. Again, please forgive my presumptuous questions.

BTW, I love the smoke effect in the game- really stunning.

[LordKainES]

I´m sorry but this mod still needs some work! it is so good, but for example maybe for the vastitude of the map I have a feeling of little mess in terms of gameplay!

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

I´m sorry but this mod still needs some work! it is so good, but for example maybe for the vastitude of the map I have a feeling of little mess in terms of gameplay!

Altering the gameplay is as easy as changing a few numbers in export_descr_units.txt. If you can change it to your liking, release it as a submod, and perhaps people will flock to it, and you might even have it incorporated into version 2.1 with credit!