Will Major Factions still die off in Turn 2?

[aeoleron9]

Remember Oda? Shimazu? Choshu?

For those who didn't play S2TW, these are all playable, major factions who consistently die off in turn 2. The reason for their demise lies in many factors: CAI pathfinding, bad opening positions, overpowered minor factions, but the bottomline is CA didn't do anything about this. Even after so many DLCs and new campaigns, major factions still die off unceremoniously, even in the latest FOTS.

IMO, this is a waste of major factions, from their unique culture, unit rosters, and even the AI personalities. When I play as Takeda I want epic fights with my nemesis Uesugi and Oda, but usually they die off early leaving me to fight endless backwater minor clans with copy-pasted rosters. I know some people will say it's a sandbox game and no faction should be safe, it's a new history etc. But when certain factions constantly die in turn 2, it's not much of a sandbox either. It's the same boring campaigns against nobodies with no real rivals to look forward to.

My question is, will this happen again in Rome 2? In other words, will Parthia or Averni get killed off in turn 2?And also, Do you think CA should help major factions survive at least the first few years?

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Nope. I think every faction should have the same chance to survive, based on location, army strength, etc. etc.

Whether they were important historically or not is irrelevant.

But, using Shogun 2 as an example, if a "Major" clan dies out, and a "Minor" clan rules half of Japan, then why wouldn't that minor faction be your rival? Just because the diplomacy screen says they are minor does not mean they are. Shogun 2 has, in my experience, the most random, "Fair" campaigns in any Total War. You never know who's going to really take over (Though some have a better chance than others.)

Besides, mods fixed that anyway.

[aeoleron9]

Shogun 2 has, in my experience, the most random, "Fair" campaigns in any Total War. You never know who's going to really take over (Though some have a better chance than others.)

Does Oda, Shimazu, Uesugi dying off early ring a bell? Like I explained in the op, I'm all for "fair and random" campaigns but if some factions are always getting killed off early, it's not really random anymore.

Besides, mods fixed that anyway.

So you admit it does need fixing. Also, which mods? I know about the Oda-Tokugawa alliance one but I don't think anybody really salvaged the trainwreck that is Shimazu, Uesugi or the Imperial factions in FOTS.

[Bearnation54]

Does Oda, Shimazu, Uesugi dying off early ring a bell? Like I explained in the op, I'm all for "fair and random" campaigns but if some factions are always getting killed off early, it's not really random anymore.


So you admit it does need fixing. Also, which mods? I know about the Oda-Tokugawa alliance one but I don't think anybody really salvaged the trainwreck that is Shimazu, Uesugi or the Imperial factions in FOTS.

Uesugi never died off early for me, specially when I played as the takeda, the uesugi were my biggest and most powerful enemy and so were the shimazu

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Does Oda, Shimazu, Uesugi dying off early ring a bell? Like I explained in the op, I'm all for "fair and random" campaigns but if some factions are always getting killed off early, it's not really random anymore.


So you admit it does need fixing. Also, which mods? I know about the Oda-Tokugawa alliance one but I don't think anybody really salvaged the trainwreck that is Shimazu, Uesugi or the Imperial factions in FOTS.

In the Radious mods, pretty much every campaign is different. I haven't noticed Oda, or any other clan, dying off with any more frequency than other one-province clans.

All Im saying is, if a faction starts off in a weak position, then regardless of whether it's a "Major" faction, it should still probably lose.

[McCarronXLD]

Nope. I think every faction should have the same chance to survive, based on location, army strength, etc. etc.

Whether they were important historically or not is irrelevant.

But, using Shogun 2 as an example, if a "Major" clan dies out, and a "Minor" clan rules half of Japan, then why wouldn't that minor faction be your rival? Just because the diplomacy screen says they are minor does not mean they are. Shogun 2 has, in my experience, the most random, "Fair" campaigns in any Total War. You never know who's going to really take over (Though some have a better chance than others.)

Besides, mods fixed that anyway.

This. Historical sandbox. I actually enjoy the games more that have unexpected outcomes.

[weirdoascensor]

I say, Why the "Major" factions are remembered in history; or even The Reason of these Factions are made into "Major" Factions in a Game hundreds of years later, rather than other factions of their time; Is because they are able to persevere, reach Legendary status in the Annals of History, considering their humble origins.

The Game simply challenge the player: Can you lead them as their real Leaders of old?

[Sommo James]

I agree with the OP. Just think what will happen if you play as Carthage and a minor italian faction takes out Rome in the eraly turn...

[Petroniu]

Yeah, I hated that. I mean, I understand that history means nothing after you hit the end turn button, but fighting the major powers it's what is all about. Also, the major problem in S2 was that not only the major powers disappeared fast but unfortunately it was always the same minor factions that took up their place. So, in their try to give us diversity they killed off a part of the game without really succeeding in delivering the other. I really hope this won't happen in R2. Especially the Briton blitz over the Germans or the Ptolies one over the Seleucids. Or the Romans over Carthage. I hated that. I mean, if you play a long campaign, you expect that things will play out differently in your area since you influence things but you want to go with the Parthians and conquer Macedon but bam, only Dacians and Thracians there. The major problem of the game was the lack of a certain stability and relief periods which would help out in prolonging the game.

[Clock]

I quite enjoyed the random nature of campaigns in Shogun 2. Every game felt different, as entirely different clans, both 'major' and 'minor' would rise to power over others. There were some issues that I saw, such as Oda getting wiped out on the first few turns in most games, but on the whole I enjoyed the dynamic of never really knowing who I'd be squaring up against come end-game. It should be said though, that my knowledge of the period is rather limited, and given the lack of variety between factions, I never had much interest in X clan over Y clan.

So I do agree with the notion that no one faction should have more chance to succeed than another, simply because it became historically significant. For me, it would kill a little of the campaign re-playability if the same major factions always swallowed up their neighbors. That said, I do think it's a system that needs more balance and consistency. Given what CA learned with S2, I'd be surprised to see any factions, particularly major ones, getting wiped out quite so easily. It seems the changes they are making to how regions work will eliminate the death rate of factions in control of smaller territories - at least I hope it will. From what we've seen of their 'artistic' representation of the map so far, it looks like a lot of the major players control more than one territory to begin with anyway, so I wouldn't expect to lose them quite so soon.

And of course, with the major playable factions being given more depth and unit variety, it would be a shame to lose them so early. It would be a little weird if Rome suddenly got wiped out on the second turn I'm sure CA are on top of that though to ensure it doesn't happen - not that it couldn't potentially happen, but that it would be rather more rare for it to do so. I certainly wouldn't want to lose that random nature to a campaign, it just needs to be better managed than in S2.

[aeoleron9]

Given what CA learned with S2, I'd be surprised to see any factions, particularly major ones, getting wiped out quite so easily. It seems the changes they are making to how regions work will eliminate the death rate of factions in control of smaller territories - at least I hope it will. From what we've seen of their 'artistic' representation of the map so far, it looks like a lot of the major players control more than one territory to begin with anyway, so I wouldn't expect to lose them quite so soon.

It's my hope as well. I'm just worried that CA doesn't even consider it an issue since they let it happen in S2 and then in FOTS too.

And of course, with the major playable factions being given more depth and unit variety, it would be a shame to lose them so early. It would be a little weird if Rome suddenly got wiped out on the second turn

Exactly. I wouldn't mind if Carthage end up killing Rome in turn 75 or something. But if either of them die before I even get to see them, I'd be right pissed.

[Sherm]

In Shogun i don't care becouse are all clones.
But in Rome i want to find Parthia in the east, and a strong Rome.

[The Juggernaut]

I think "Major" factions should have some sort of defense bonus the first 3 turns. They can invade without being invaded or some gamey nonsense like that, simply because the OP is right. As someone who doesn't really know that much about Japanese history, I'd like to fight against someone I know. I'm gearing up to fight the fierce Date warriors only to find out that some bumpkin called the Satake has taken over the whole north? It's realistic, but I think majors should at least survive the first 3 turns.

[Nicolaos]

I hope not

Don't really care if averni, iceni or suebi get destroyed early on though. Probably won't matter which barbarian clan you'll run into.

But Rome, Carthage, Macedon and Parthia are factions that need to be around for a time

[empr guy]

I think that the size of the map and locations of everyone should prevent most factions from being completely eliminated within the first couple of turns, although hopefully they will be able to make an AI that isn't suicidal. (i.e., abandoning their cities so a couple levy units can destroy the faction.)

The other side to this is you don't want these 8 factions to be given a huge advantage just so that doesn't happen, or that all other factions (until dlc...) just serve as rebels with slightly more personality (AKA they just get absorbed by the major factions)

[CivFan]

The more random the better. I would love to see different games every time. Let them die.

[xjlxking]

NO! What they need to make sure is that the factions don't attack or advance in the same direction every time. IE: I want to see Macedonia attacking Egyptian Land, going north, taking on Seleucid empire..etc. UNPREDICTABLE!!! This way, you will have a play through with Parthia that may or may not get killed off. I don't want to see Parthia ALWAYS going to power because it's a major power. IT's boring and has little re-play value. I want to see Seleucid beating their uprising, or even Carthage beating down Rome.

[Ciciro]

The only reason why all the "major" factions died off in shogun is because they all start off with one or two territories, so if they they mess up in the beginning they are pretty much guaranteed to die. This never happens for me in any other game other than Shogun 2, so i doubt it will happen in Rome 2.

[aeoleron9]

The more random the better. I would love to see different games every time.

Me too. That's why I'm sick of the same factions dying constantly in turn 2.

The only reason why all the "major" factions died off in shogun is because they all start off with one or two territories, so if they they mess up in the beginning they are pretty much guaranteed to die. This never happens for me in any other game other than Shogun 2, so i doubt it will happen in Rome 2.

Sadly, major factions with 1-2 lands seems to be here to stay, if the faction maps we've seen are any indication.

The thing is, ever since they introduced minor factions to replace those rebel regions, major factions became much more likely to die off early, due to all the potential threats around them. The instant they try to expand, some minor can take advantage. The only reason not MORE majors die off early is lucky positions and peaceful minor neighbors.

[Dude with the Food]

I understand that a random factor is good but when it is the same factions dying every time it gets very repetitive. Shimazu lasted to turn 8 once in my campaigns. That was an Ai record for me. Oda or Tokugawa die turn 2 and sometimes Mori.

In R2 this better not happen most of the time. If CA put so much work into these factions, I want to be able to play against them as well as with them. Even if it's a case of giving them an extra couple of starting units and a building.