New to the forum, question about Fountain Guard

[Praetorian349]

Hey, fellas. As I have said I am new to these forums but well versed in the world of LotR and experienced with Total War games.

My question is...why are the Fountain Guard so useless in game? I mean, they are the strongest of the most battle-hardened race in Middle-Earth, scarred by decades of war and bloodshed, forged in the furnace of pitched warfare against an inexorable foe, clad in armour said to be forged of Mithril. These men are the best Gondor has to offer. (And I know Gondor is not what it used to be by the Third Age, but its army is definitely the most disciplined and experienced of all of Middle-Earth. Maybe not the most skilled, when compared to Elves, or the most fearless and well-equipped, when compared to the Dwarves, but if nothing else they have the courage of men, a formidable shield in itself.)

I have read up on the Fountain Guard on these forums and the prevailing opinion seems to be that they are balanced ingame...I think not. They cost a considerable amount (close to 1000) and I had them fight in a battle against a Dwarven army. They were in spear-wall formation, with guard mode on, and they fared worse than my regular Gondorian infantrymen while fighting weaker foes...? They can't even function as anti-cavalry as they do not have the trait that gives bonus damage against cavalry. I know that their pikes are supposed to give them an advantage in this mod, but even considering that their stats are appallingly low. What I am saying is they are a poor representation of what the Fountain Guard was capable of and should be capable of.

Comments from around 2009 said they were amazingly tough. Although that is not what I am seeing in 3.2, was there a balance change? o.O

Also, I have noticed mention of RR/RC...? I assume this is a balance mod, and no, I do not have it. Are they better represented in that mod?

Thanks for the replies in advance, but please, no over-zealous Elf/Dwarf/Orc fanboy responses, etc, please! Remain objective.

P.S Don't try to tell me the Elves are more experienced than the Gondorian army. Yes, the Elves live for centuries and so, like the Space Marines of WH40k, can accumulate extensive battlefield experience through their lives, but, unlike the Gondorians, they are not very warlike and are not locked in an unyielding, brutal and vicious war against countless Orc hordes.

[Praetorian349]

Also, I noticed this and thought it was a strong argument for the elite Fountain Guard being a good counter to units like Olog-Hai and Mumakil...

I think that if trolls should have a weakness, it should be to elite infantry (particularly infantry with spears/pikes). I'll justify this by saying experienced/well-trained men would be skilled enough to dodge clumsy troll attacks and get in close where they could actually do damage, whereas poorer infantry would hang back and be killed.So in sum, I see nothing wrong with Fountain Guard beating trolls.

[Mhaedros]

Fountain Guards really is one of the strongest units in the game. The Fountain Guard has infinite moral, ie they can't flee and has very good stats. Make sure spear wall is off and the unit(s) have some backup in case they get surrounded.

[Praetorian349]

Really? I have had them fight:

• in spear-wall with guard mode
• in spear-wall without guard mode
• out of spear-wall
• in bottlenecks 1vs1
• in fully fledged army battles
• against cavalry
• against light infantry
• against heavy infantry

Every time the result is thoroughly underwhelming compared to both how expensive/rare they are and how they are supposed to be, lore wise.

The best thing they have ever done for me was holding the courtyard of Minas Tirith, two groups held with fairly substantial casualties against around 500 heavy infantry Orcs and Easterlings. And bear in mind that they also had Gondorian infantrymen and militia backing them up on the flanks, with the archers on the walls shooting down into the courtyard. With odds like that they should have had next to no casualties, not casualties in the hundreds. -_-

[Ngugi]

To pit them against Dwarves make for a potentially unfair compairison I might add; Dwarves have the best avarage armour stats and the best armour stats of all units, many of them also have AP (a problem for FG who have much strenght in their armour) and other infantry get bonuses vs speararmed infantry, meaning that if the FG screw up the situation (a.k.a let the enemy in close enough to hit at them) there will be problem.
That's what trolls are there for. Break lines
If FG hold their line however, and as noted spearwall should be disabled, they are killers in all my experience.

[Praetorian349]

Let me clarify the Dwarf battle. I was testing a Gondorian army of 1 FG unit, 1 SK unit and 2 Swordsmen units, all with fully upgraded armour and weapons, against a Dwarven army of 1 Guards of Khazad-Dum unit, 1 Dragonslayers units and 2 Axemen of Erebor units, all with fully upgraded armour and weapons.

My FG held the centre in spear-wall with guard mode on. My SK's charged from my right flank. My Swordsmen units charged from my left flank. 1 unit of Axemen of Erebor charged my FG and were beaten, with 20 FG troops surviving , my SK's engaged the Dragonslayers and beat them with few casualties. My Swordsmen engaged their second Axemen of Erebor unit and defeated them with moderate casualties, after which the Guards of Khazad-Dum attacked them. With the help of my SK's, who had been successful in their fight against the Dragonslayers, the Guards of Khazad-Dum were defeated, again with moderate casualties.

This doesn't make any sense to me, that the FG would be the most expensive, and yet most fragile and easily bested unit, of my force. And, as stated, it was not just this instance. I have fought many battles with the FG, in varying circumstances, and they have always fared sub-par. Incredibly disappointing compared to what I would expect of them.

However, question, why do I want to have spear-wall disabled? Wouldn't that decrease their combat effectiveness? o.O

[Praetorian349]

Just did the test now without being in spear-wall.

This time it was just the FG vs the Axemen of Erebor (both sides having militia generals on the sidelines to prevent morale from being an issue). The charge of the Axemen slaughtered 10 of my men with zero casualties to them. My numbers kept dropping steadily, theirs dropping at minute rates. However, after a while, the numbers started to even out until the FG had a 50 man lead on the Axemen.

It seems that after the shock of the initial charge wears off the FG come into their own and begin to demolish their foes. Still, they had lost 50 men before they had a 1:1 K/D on the Axemen. Not great considering the cost disparity between the two units, and the differences in strength, lore-wise.

[Flinn]

IMO, lore-wise no one is stronger than Dwarves in melee, so I don't find anything strange if even the most skilled Men troops suffers badly against the elite dwarven units.

Anyway, I always used FG (the rare times I did ) as a second line of infantry, I never use best troops as first line unless I have no alternatives.. well they worked fine if backing up medium infantry, they can hold the line for much longer. Furthermore, I think that we always have to keep in mind rooster balance, Men have cavalry (and in some cases very good archers too), if they would have also infantry stronger than Dwarves ..

[Praetorian349]

Well, all I am thinking is that the soldiers of the Men of the West, the men who fight day in, day out, against the forces of Mordor, be them Trolls, Uruk-Hai, Orcs, Easterlings, Haradrim, the men who are on the front lines every day, their elites should be strong, skillful and reliable. The strength of the Fountain Guards we are given in the mod is something you would expect from militia pikemen. -_-

And you cannot forget that the experience in combat the soldiers of Gondor have earned is worth more than any innate strength that the Dwarves possess (which I am well aware is a lot).

The Gondorians are a strong lot, their breed being known for hardiness, strength of sword-arm, courage, discipline, dedication to the defense of Middle-Earth and, to a lesser extent than the Dwarves, their smithing...and they're taller! xD Their strength perfectly suits their fighting style, a thick shield, heavy plate armour and a broadsword. The shield and heavy armour strengthen their tendency towards lack of agility, which assists their relentless hack'n'slash brutality of sword-strike. Alright, I am done shamelessly plugging the Men of the West.

That being said, the Dwarves have very similar traits to the Gondorians. Just less battle experience, somewhat better equipment, less dexterity, slightly more endurance, more toughness, are fearless (but not as courageous ) and not as handy with a longbow

Now that I have protected the honour of my favourite faction xD ...

I stand by it that the FG are underpowered. They are the best fighters in Gondor and yet ingame they can barely stand against Orcs. -_-

And in the battle between the FG and Dwarves both have great armour, but both have armour piercing. So it comes down to skill. The skill of the Fountain Guards cannot be matched by the Dwarves. The Dwarves may win in strength but I stand by it that the Fountain Guard should definitely be stronger. And if you don't agree you must atleast concede that they need to be stronger than they currently are. >

[Mhaedros]

Where do you take all this from, because basically none of what you just said is written anywhere. Heck, plate armor didn't even exist in Middle Earth before Jackson came along. Also, why wouldn't Dwarves have any battle experience, they've fought one of the greatest wars in Middle Earth not very long ago and has constantly been skirmishing with orcs and a lil' someone called Smaug, while the men of Gondor haven't had a real battle for hundreds of years, unless you count the constant skirmish that is Osgiliath.

[Praetorian349]

Many texts, including the LotR Weapons and Warfare book, check it out, it's a good read.

The Gondorians have been doing a hellova lot more than skirmishing. Ithilien is filled to the brim with the denizens of Mordor. And it is even more filled to the brim with their corpses, thanks to the Rangers of Ithilien and the soldiers of Gondor. And Osgiliath has been host to a fair few great sieges. Boromir even led a fullscale river crossing and retook the Eastern shore from the forces of Mordor, utterly routing them with his outnumbered force of Gondorian troops.

[Flinn]

although I agree that the FG should be a little more stronger, I stand that Dwarven elite infantry should have no match in 1vs1 melee combat.

And anyway, IMO, the best troops for Gondor are and should be Swan Knights and not FG

[muller227]

Fountain guard can really only fight well one direction, forward, I only use them in large armies 3 or 4 of them with very strong flank security they are too me a hold the line unit not a killer elite, I leave that too BG's, Ithilien Rangers and Swan units.

RR/RC is either a very simple mod three files and save game compatible or can be found in the MOS submod, I generally find some small mistakes here and there in the systems but I find it personally a far better combat and recruitment system, others don't like it, your game your choice. If you do go the RR/RC route I suggest familiarizing yourself with PointBlankes rules and system it is a very thorough and logical system.

The following units in RR/RC in my experience are the most devastating in no particular order, Khazads, dragonslayers, Mithlonders, and Loke Gamp Rim the last being caused by the inadvertent marrying of halbard attack scores with the very fast pike attack animation.

[Wizad]

The Fountain Guard are killing machines. In my battles, they have destroyed everything that they have come across, including Nazguls.

[Lortano]

Firstly, to fight against the dwarves is an unfair comparison.
1) The dwarves are the best Melee faction, no contest.
2) You won't fight them on the campaign

Although I also want to know why Spear wall is a bad thing when fighting. Does it decrease their attack, or is it simply that the whole Spear Wall collapses when flanked? I'd like to know this before I make a Gondor walkthrough for youtube!

[Wizad]

Since people are having a hard time using the Fountain Guards in battle.

Sword units such as the Gondor militia are basically able to fight in all directions. After the battle has started you could go around the 2 front lines that are fighting each other, and charge the enemy in the rear. If the enemy still has some reserve troops they will most likely charge the militia in the rear to deal with it. Because the militia are easily obtainable the initial damage does not matter that much. Also the last lines will probably turn around and fight that enemy.

The Fountain Guards are a whole different story. They are extremely hard to obtain and they are extremely immobile. There are 2 ways you can eliminate these weaknesses. The first one is by using the Fountain Guards in the front line, but a bit fallen back such as this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Note that if the Rohan militia wanted to charge my FG, they would have no option but to charge fully into the line of my spears. The FG are in spearwall formation, the FG have very long spears so it useful to keep the enemies at bay.

The Fountain Guards have very high damage coupled with their AP. This means that you can also use them as shock troops. However as I already mentioned, the Fountain Guards are hard to obtain so it is important that you lose as few as possible. That's why when I use my FG as shock troops, I make sure that the AI cannot abuse the fact that they are sitting ducks during that time. I place my troops such as this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Note that my Gondor Militia is keeping their front line in place. While I used my cavalry to keep their reserves in place. I maneuvered my FG around the front lines and they now have a clear path to charge the enemy in the back, while not having to worry at all about being charged in the back themselves. Also the Fountain Guard are NOT in spearwall formation, this is because I want to be able to get the charge bonus.


Of course I only used a couple of units in both of these battles for clarity, but my examples are usable in large scale. Good luck with your Gondor campaigns!

[Praetorian349]

Thanks very much for the responses guys, I appreciate it.

Flinn, fair enough, I will however say that my opinion is that the FG should be stronger than the SK's. The FG are an elite within an elite, while the SK's are a specialist corp of soldiers. Just my opinion.

muller227, so is RR/RC a drastic change? Is it, in your honest opinion, worth getting? o.O

Lortano, there is only one reason why fighting Dwarves is an unfair comparison. That is that almost every unit of theirs pierces armour, and Gondor's armour is crucial to its battle tactics. Other than that I could argue that the Men are the best infantry melee faction, no contest, as that is what they specialise is, just like the Dwarves. But that would achieve nothing, so lets agree to disagree.

Wizad, I wish I had seen the FG being killing machines on my game, but they never seem to do very well in any situation. Maybe I am incredibly unlucky, maybe I don't have the same version as you guys (3.2), or maybe my expectations for the greatest warriors of the descendents of Numenor are too high, but something is definitely wrong.

Also, thank you very much for the indepth analysis of the FG tactics, mate. When I am able to +rep you'll be the first on my list. There is just one issue. I don't like the fact that the FG are only good when fighting in a disiciplined formation and when the odds are in their favour. They are strong warriors. They should be brilliant in free-flowing melee, but instead they must rely on their formation holding together to be useful. And apparently flanking is their bane? As the best fighters in Minas Tirith I would assume they could hold their own in individual combat just as well, AT LEAST, as those militia.

Just my complaints about the game, that is all.

[jthewonder]

Im not gonna delve into this discussion since its late and im tired, but have you thought about changing their stats yourself ? it might not be the most perfect solution but unit stats are quite possible the easiest thing to change in this game.

[Lortano]

They do come into their own when you want to hold a chokepoint though, the armies of Mordor vs one unit of Fountain Guard in a chokepoint is a sight to see.

[muller227]

@praetorian 349

I personally cannot play any TW game without RR/RC others don't like it at all, try out the simple version that is save game compatable (sp), see if you like it. it only substitutes 3 files. Personally I favor MOS but that is just me.

Fountain guard are pretty damn tough in in this sytem.