The Reunited Kingdom

[Wizad]

Hello fellow TATW players.

We've had a lot of discussion about which factions and units should be added to the game. However, I think it's been a long while since we've had a discussion on the possibility of restoring the Reunited Kingdom.

The purpose of this thread is to give a place for everyone to brainstorm, and we either come up with something that KK could add to a possible TATW 3.3, or we could make a submod out of it with the help of some modders.


There are some questions that need answering before we can start to think about implementation.

1. What are the requirements for restoring the RK?
Some possibilities are: Arnor, an alliance between Gondor and Arnor, a restored Gondor*, and Gondor accepts Aragorn's help. More requirements would be fun to make it harder to achieve, please post if you have some good ideas. As Isengard is an old Dunedain fortress, holding the Orthanc could be another requirement.
*This would require Gondor to retake the Ithilien and Minas Ithil and a rebuild Osgiliath.

2. What are the benefits of restoring the RK?
Well obviously the main benefit would be having control of both territories in the north and territories in the south. I've heard many people complain that their Eriador campaign is basically over by the time they restore Arnor. By having a RK, you get extra enemies to fight against without having to ship over armies which is boring or having to buy a city from the AI.

3. Public order.
One problem with this idea is the high level of corruption in the TATW mod, which would mean that the player has to have a sizable garrison in every small town just to keep the population in control. A fix for this could be using an idea used in a Last Alliance submod (my apologies if it was a different submod). There they divided the territories in core regions of the north and south. If the Eriador player restores the RK, he will get an extra hidden capital, Osgiliath, which will lower corruption to all territories near it as if it was the normal capital.

4. Units.
I'm not sure which units should be available for the RK. A possibility could be the normal Arnorian units in the north and Gondorian units in the south. The RK will have access to all the special units such as the Knights of Annuminas, Swan Knights and Guards of Osgiliath.

5. Should the AI be able to reform the RK?
It is likely that the AI will not be able to deal with a divided realm and fighting different factions in the north and south. Although the Dwarven AI seems to function fine. Please post your thoughts on this.


edit:
6. Possible new enemies?
A lot of people seem to dislike the idea of an emerging Angmar. However with this new Kingdom, it could make sense to have a script that instantly gives Mordor some stacks next to Mount Doom, and a emerging faction of Angmar some stacks in the north next to Carn Dum. I'm not sure whether this would work out gameplay wise, but some extra resistance to make the game harder is needed to keep the game challenging. What are your thoughts on this?


I'll keep updating this post every time someone gives an interesting new idea.

[VlaDeatHell]

As a long time lurker I'd really like to have that feature in the game or at least a submod that does it well enough to be challenging and interesting. So here I my thoughts on the matter:
1. I think the requirements should be pretty tough to achieve since it'll give you control over nearly 1/4 of the territories if it works as I imagine:
1.1. For Arnor I think it may work like that :
a)Arnor must be restored, that goes without saying IMO. Alliance with Gondor is also pretty much the same.
b)Aragorn must be alive. Maybe implement the direct descendant submod that I saw in MOS (forgot the name, apologies) but clearly your faction leader should be of Isildur's lineage. Also from MOS, maybe some quest requirements for him like the one for going to Dunharrow but instead of that going to Minas Tirith/Osgiliath.
c)Gondor must hold all of the lands west of Anduin, maybe even the Ithilien regions + Osgiliath and Minas Ithil (sounds a little bit harsh but one can accomplish it by capturing the regions and giving them back to Gondor). Not really sure about the second part but the first is a must in my mind.
1.2 For Gondor I think pretty much the same as you, alliance with restored Arnor, Gondor restored (Osgiliath rebuilt + Minas Ithil, probalby also add all the Ithilien regions just for the sake of challenge). Aragorn alive and on active duty for Gondor.
2. The benefits will mainly be for Eriador/Arnor campaign IMO. I actually never managed to restore Arnor BEFORE I complete my objectives. Usually it's pretty close, something like 20-30 turns but still kinda ruins the great idea behind Arnor restored line. About Gondor, I think that'll make them a little easier to play against the Harad/Mordor stackspam late game and give people a real alternative to rush Minas Morgul, hold Mordor, destroy Harad routine I've seen almost all employ, including me. Also, new combined victory conditions will be great, not sure how that can be achieved, maybe with the help of a something like the Eriador-to-Arnor switch .bat or something like that. New victory conditions may vary from combining both kingdom's goal or simply eradicate ALL evil from the map (I think the latter will work better). That will give people something to really fight for, don't you think?
3. Units : all militia level can be recruited all over the map (both Arnor and Gondor's). Professional (2nd tier) level troops recruitment all over BOTH kingdoms core territories (that means Gondor infantry at Bree and Arnor Man-at-arms in Minas Tirith for example). Elites should be left as they are, some of them are already so powerful that having more than 1-2 in a stack will make the game pointless. Probably add three units as AOR for Annuminas and Osgiliath - heavy cavalry, inspiring troops + slightly better stats than Knights of Annuminas, heavy infantry and heavy archers pretty much alike. Recruit time 4, Replenish time 20. Maybe even more.
4. Second capital in Annuminas/Osgiliath if possbile will pretty much resolve the corruption issues to make this work IMO. Bear in mind you will have quite big trade income as both kingdoms settlements are one of the best late game money makers except for the high mining income regions.
5. I don't know how to make this really work. One of the things that's really annoying is after the combined strength of HE, Dwarves, SE and Eriador finishes the OOG and OOTM they pretty much stay on their asses doing nothing, especially Eriador. So... the best aproach IMO will be to make A.I. Arnor become Reunited Kingdom if Gondor looses badly and vice versa. For examle if both Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth are lost (which pretty much means Harad and/or Mordor are steamrolling Gondor as 4/5 games happen for me) and Annuminas and Bree lost for A.I. Gondor (though IMO that would cripple the Gondor game even more). Also some script to add 1-2 stacks of combined good quality troops for the Restored Kingdom.
6. My thoughts are about the same, though Angmar has been discussed many times and I see the reason behind the arguments of both sides (supporting/opposing the idea).

Lastly I'd like to say that I (and I imagine a lot of people) are really looking forward to a way to implement a feature like this in the game or a submod. I already have tons of fun with the restoring kingdoms features for Arnor, HE and SE (latter two from MOS) and I really think it's time for the kingdoms of men to have a similar feature. My only regret is though I have some programming experience and I have no modding one and I find myself lacking in time to get into things. So my help if that becomes more than an idea will most probably be with ideas and possibly some writing. My apologies for the long post and for my grammar, English is not native to me. Cheers!

[Duke of Metz]

I would love to see the Reunited Kingdom become a possibility/reality, and I think a lot of the leg work for making it a possibility is being done by the Last Alliance submod team.


As for conditions to restore:
Arnor - must have reforged Arnor, Aragorn must be alive, alliance with Gondor, Gondor must hold Minas Tirith, top 5(?) in faction rankings.
Gondor - must have restored Gondor's borders (hold all of Gondor & Ithilien), must have accepted Aragorn's help and he must be alive, must have rebuilt Osgiliath, Arnor must be rebuilt, alliance with Arnor, Arnor must hold Annuminas, top 5(?) in faction rankings.
Possible additional condition for both: must control Isengard. An important enough part of the early Dunedain Kingdoms to hold a palantir, and control of the Gap of Rohan would essentially be required to successfully rule the split kingdom.


I think those are difficult, but rewarding conditions that encourage you to assist your Dunedain allies. As for rewards, I think you should get all of the other factions units as AOR in their respective settlements. If that is too much, then perhaps just the elites (Swan Knights, Knights of Annuminas). Perhaps some additional units from the Last Alliance submod if they would be kind enough to allow when they release.


I like your idea of giving Evil a boost if you do form the Reunited Kingdom. I think a couple of dread stacks spawning in Mordor and Angmar area would make a nice challenge - assuming the One Ring hasn't been destroyed. I don't think you'd need a new faction to do this, they would just be reinforcements for Mordor/OOG (or the faction re-emerging if they've been defeated, to add some more spice). I don't think the AI should be able to form the Reunited Kingdom, would create too many difficulties, and could ruin gameplay if playing as another faction.

[knicolas2]

The idea is quite great.. is it not already a submod in some submods?

What i would also like to see again as in baron samedi´s for 3.1 is to have the opportunity to make aragorn king or the army of death .. that would be great.

[Wizad]

As for conditions to restore:
Arnor - ....top 5(?) in faction rankings.
Gondor - ...top 5(?) in faction rankings.

I dislike the use of faction rankings. They just don't give an accurate picture of the state of affairs in TATW.

Possible additional condition for both: must control Isengard. An important enough part of the early Dunedain Kingdoms to hold a palantir, and control of the Gap of Rohan would essentially be required to successfully rule the split kingdom.

Very good idea, I added it.

The idea is quite great.. is it not already a submod in some submods?

I've never seen a fully functional RK submod, and there are no recent ones.

What i would also like to see again as in baron samedi´s for 3.1 is to have the opportunity to make aragorn king or the army of death .. that would be great.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think this is added in MOS, Aragorn can get an army of the dead ancillary if he stays at Dunharrow for a couple of turns. I'm not sure how you can activate it though.

[Flinn]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think this is added in MOS, Aragorn can get an army of the dead ancillary if he stays at Dunharrow for a couple of turns. I'm not sure how you can activate it though.

for now it only gives Aragorn an anchillary, not any army of the dead yet

[knicolas2]

i think in baron samedi´s mod for 3.1 was the possibility to get the army of death under certain conditions.
take a look here
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...6#post10533396
the pictures seem like they are not working anymore

and here about return of the king http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...3#post10575173

[Araval]

I liked pretty much Baron's RK.

[manekemaan]

perilicious compilation mod includes an option to form the rk.

[Dutch-Balrog]

So has MOS afaik, and I thought dac will too, not sure though.

[alreadyded]

The only real condition should be destroying the Ring (Sauron) as this was the whole reason Aragorn and his ancestors were in exile. This is how it is in PCP's Third Age campaigns. There are also Fourth Age campaigns with the RK as a faction from the get go.

[Wizad]

Needing to destory the ring kind of eliminates the need for the RK though. What enemies will you fight with your new Kingdom if the requirement was destroying your main enemy?

[Mhaedros]

The thing is that the few people who actually play long enough to form it would also already have defeated basically everything. Unless you've managed to turtle for hundreds of turns AND Eriador/Gondor has survived all these turns, it would be boring as hell once you got so far as to actually reunite the kingdom. Also, even if you still have enemies it would be way too easy with that amount of regions. You'd probably have around 20'ish regions if you haven't expanded and 50-100 if both you and the AI have.

[Steward Denethor II]

Yeah the Reunited Kingdom would make the end game way too easy and not so fun IMO. If you want to rule both Kingdoms, you should just conquer them!

[mondpeiler]

well, in the beginning the idea is charming (and has been brought up many times before).
but I see some problems:

1st
how can you make the reunification easy enought to achieve it in time so that a RK is still reasonable and the game not over yet.
and simultaneously in contradiction make it heavy enough to not be walk in the park.

2nd
how can you achieve that the game is still interesting aftrer the resurrection?

so maybe there have to be some triggerpoints, that aren't too easy to achieve, but without weakening the enemy too much.
I could imagine:

as Gondor:
+ hold your starting regions
+ Black gate, Minas Ithil, old dúnedain settlements on the eastern shore of the Anduin (maybe Umbar)
+ Denethor and Boromir dead

+ "rebuild"/regrow the white tree in Minas Arnor (as a counterpart to the Hall of Kings)

As Eriador:
+ hold all those regions, you need to reunite Arnor (but instead of Arnor - you achieve the RK)
+ (maybe Isengard)
+ Aragorn still alive (maybe even Gandalf)
+ rebuild the Hall of Kings in Annúminas

in my opinion there shouldn't be triggers like exterminating Orcs or Mordor or sth...
and the idea of you, to give the enemies extra stacks after the reunification is good.
but without Angmar - better would be to give them to Mordor/OotMM/OoG or if they don't exist any longer: "mongol" Orc hordes as emerging factions triggered by the reunification.

just some thoughts
mp

[Teutonic Warlord]

It was done by Baron Samedi in his compilation for 3.1, along with a script that allowed you to start the game with it and another to make Aragorn the true king (both optional). Never got around to playing it, though. I think it would work well because usually Eriador or Gondor isn't doing too well if not controlled by the player. However, even if that isn't the case, the script could place handicaps on the Reunited Kingdom that are removed once certain conditions are met. Some requirements to reunite the kingdom could include: Aragorn (alive and king), Arnor must be established, Gondor or Arnor must have an alliance with Rohan (unless destroyed), Osgiliath must be rebuilt OR Ithilien and Minas Ithil reclaimed, Arnor must reclaim lost lands, etc.

Some possible conditions that will place handicaps on the kingdom until completed: rebuild the North-South Road, rebuild the Great West Road, rebuild Osgiliath, reclaim Ithilien and Minas Ithil, reclaim Harondor, rebuild old settlements of Arnor (like Tharbad or Amon Sul), Isegard must be controlled by the Reunited Kingdom or Rohan, take Umbar, take Carn Dum, etc.

Of course, by the time all of these conditions are met, the game would obviously be over, but it would be a nice feature for those who wanted to restore the Kingdom to its former glory and/or decide to fight everybody left in Middle Earth.

[Omnistar]

Hello fellow TATW players.

We've had a lot of discussion about which factions and units should be added to the game. However, I think it's been a long while since we've had a discussion on the possibility of restoring the Reunited Kingdom.

The purpose of this thread is to give a place for everyone to brainstorm, and we either come up with something that KK could add to a possible TATW 3.3, or we could make a submod out of it with the help of some modders.


There are some questions that need answering before we can start to think about implementation.

1. What are the requirements for restoring the RK?
Some possibilities are: Arnor, an alliance between Gondor and Arnor, a restored Gondor*, and Gondor accepts Aragorn's help. More requirements would be fun to make it harder to achieve, please post if you have some good ideas. As Isengard is an old Dunedain fortress, holding the Orthanc could be another requirement.
*This would require Gondor to retake the Ithilien and Minas Ithil and a rebuild Osgiliath.

2. What are the benefits of restoring the RK?
Well obviously the main benefit would be having control of both territories in the north and territories in the south. I've heard many people complain that their Eriador campaign is basically over by the time they restore Arnor. By having a RK, you get extra enemies to fight against without having to ship over armies which is boring or having to buy a city from the AI.

3. Public order.
One problem with this idea is the high level of corruption in the TATW mod, which would mean that the player has to have a sizable garrison in every small town just to keep the population in control. A fix for this could be using an idea used in a Last Alliance submod (my apologies if it was a different submod). There they divided the territories in core regions of the north and south. If the Eriador player restores the RK, he will get an extra hidden capital, Osgiliath, which will lower corruption to all territories near it as if it was the normal capital.

4. Units.
I'm not sure which units should be available for the RK. A possibility could be the normal Arnorian units in the north and Gondorian units in the south. The RK will have access to all the special units such as the Knights of Annuminas, Swan Knights and Guards of Osgiliath.

5. Should the AI be able to reform the RK?
It is likely that the AI will not be able to deal with a divided realm and fighting different factions in the north and south. Although the Dwarven AI seems to function fine. Please post your thoughts on this.


edit:
6. Possible new enemies?
A lot of people seem to dislike the idea of an emerging Angmar. However with this new Kingdom, it could make sense to have a script that instantly gives Mordor some stacks next to Mount Doom, and a emerging faction of Angmar some stacks in the north next to Carn Dum. I'm not sure whether this would work out gameplay wise, but some extra resistance to make the game harder is needed to keep the game challenging. What are your thoughts on this?


I'll keep updating this post every time someone gives an interesting new idea.

In book that Tolkien started but threw out altogether, "A New Shadow," (at least, I think that is what it is called) he described a particular dark cult that arose after the death of Aragorn Elessar and the ascension of Eldarion, Aragorn's only son. The cult (which worshiped Sauron and Melkor, by the way) was a rebellion that rose against Eldarion sometime during the second century of the Fourth Age. Of course, because Tolkien threw out the book, we will never really understand as to why the cult arose in the first place. I suggest that if Mordor is destroyed (or at least the Ring itself) then an "Invasion Script" should be placed into the game following the destruction of Mordor as well as the reunification of Gondor and Arnor. Or, and this would probably make more sense, create a type of "Baron's Alliance Script" along with the reunification script. At least, that would help with the low public order idea. Hehe. As for how to form the RK, however, I would suggest going into a secondary "Kelmar Union Script" and using the old form of it. In other words, when the acting Steward dies after all other objectives have been met, hello RK. Hope this helps.

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

The thing is that the few people who actually play long enough to form it would also already have defeated basically everything. Unless you've managed to turtle for hundreds of turns AND Eriador/Gondor has survived all these turns, it would be boring as hell once you got so far as to actually reunite the kingdom. Also, even if you still have enemies it would be way too easy with that amount of regions. You'd probably have around 20'ish regions if you haven't expanded and 50-100 if both you and the AI have.

While I Like the Idea I think that Mhaedros is right by the time the "Reunification" appears the game would be in its late stages and many players Including myself never finish the campaigns I tend to quit when I reach turn 120-150. And that happens a lot right now with Eriador many people by the time they Reform Arnor have pretty much finish their campaign.

[The Forgotten]

I say make Angmar in the north along with a separate horde of orcs (2 and a half stacks). Then in the south there could be a "roman rebellion" event from in Roma Surrectum II. The faction could be something about the cultists or perhaps loyalists to the Stewards? Also more Corsair landings too. That would help keep players interested.

I also say you give another starting retinue to the FL so population grows faster. Similar to the Lord Chancellor I think. Then Osgiliath and Annuminais could reach their needed levels a bit faster.