Reform Units

[Biggieboy]

Hi there,

I was wondering what reforms give what units. I haven't seen a comprehensive list so far. For romans it's quite clear, but what about aedui/casse/sweboz, carthaginians,...

Also, the polybian units seem to have lower stats than their camillan counterparts (at least triarii). Is that normal? or are they compensating somehow?

thanks for any info you can give

[Entropy Judge]

I was wondering what reforms give what units. I haven't seen a comprehensive list so far. For romans it's quite clear, but what about aedui/casse/sweboz, carthaginians,...

I think there is a partial list floating somewhere on the forum, but it's being slow for me

Also, the polybian units seem to have lower stats than their camillan counterparts (at least triarii). Is that normal? or are they compensating somehow?

Hmm ...
Equites: Camillan have better Armour, Polybian have better Discipline/Training and are cheaper.
Hastati: Camillan are cheaper and have a bonus vs Chariots; Polybian have better Armour, better Lethality for the sword, better Morale.
Principes: Camillan have better Attack, are Cheaper, use a Spear, slightly better Skill; Polybian have better Armour, more Mass.
Triarii: Camillan have better Charge, better Armour, more Mass, tighter Formation; Polybian have slightly better Morale and are Cheaper.

Also, all Polybian units have a larger AoR.

[Biggieboy]

hey entropy, thanks for the reply, that at least makes the camillan/polybian issue more clear. Still seems to me that camillan gets my preference, apart from the larger AoR of course, and maybe polybian hastati are slightly better, but I never use them; i use a combination of principes/triarii/socii (if that's what they're called)

Also, in my game, polybian triarii and pedites extraordinarii have 42 units instead of 81! but still with about the same price (about 1600 for 81 camillan triarii, about same price for 42 polybian triarii). Was that in the original EB as well? because I installed the EB mega mod pack.

[Entropy Judge]

and maybe polybian hastati are slightly better, but I never use them;

P Hastati are significantly better than Camillan ones; that .3 Lethality increase is huge. Of course, there's not much reason *to* use them instead of Principes except realism, so .... They do look a bit nicer than Principes, though.

Also, in my game, polybian triarii and pedites extraordinarii have 42 units instead of 81! but still with about the same price (about 1600 for 81 camillan triarii, about same price for 42 polybian triarii). Was that in the original EB as well? because I installed the EB mega mod pack.

No, that's something from the mod; IIRC, the factual P Triarii were half the size of the other units in the maniple. Quintus_Sertoriu, I think, specifically talks about it in his "Guide to Being a True Roman" (or whatever it was called).


Hmm ... the thing about the Reform-granted units is that, IIRC, most factions only gain/lose a couple units from their Reforms. For example, the Makedonians get the Reformed Heavy Phalanx and the KH get their Pike Phalanx unit. Carthage gets a hanful of elite units. The Sweboz get a Heavy Infantry unit and a Heavy Cavalry unit (both of which are awesome units ... but expensive), and that's it. Seleukids get their Kataphractoi. The Romans and the Celtic factions, I think, get the most units from their reforms.

[athanaric]

You can change unit size in the "video settings" in the options menu. Set them to "huge" size if you have a sufficiently modern computer.

[Biggieboy]

No, that's not what I mean. My unit scale is large. On that scale, my camillan triarii have 82 units when recruiting. HOWEVER! my polybian triarii and pedites extraordinarii only have 42 units max when recruiting. So I'm wondering if it's for everyone, or because I installed that mod pack.

[Biggieboy]

are you talking about the generic march of time reform? I was talking about specific reforms (time of bondsmen, time of soldiers, etc etc).

and the resizing doesn't make sense, or at least not without reducing cost. They are now useless for their investment. Or am I missing something?

[Entropy Judge]

are you talking about the generic march of time reform? I was talking about specific reforms (time of bondsmen, time of soldiers, etc etc).

March of Time is what gives the Makedonians and KH their new units, as well as upgrading BG units (AFAIK). But of the factions who have specific reforms, you have the Celts, Saka, Romani, Seleukids, Hai, Carthage, Sweboz, and Pahlav. As I mentioned above, Carthage gets four units, the Sweboz two, Seleukids get one, I think Saka get one or two, and I think the Hai and Pahlav reforms are just Government reforms, not unit-based ones. The Celts get ... off the top of my head, they get an Archer, a Spearman, lose a Spearman, lose Axemen (for the Gauls only), lose Chariots, and gain Elite units (IIRC Solduros and the Unique units require the first set of Reforms to have triggered, though I'm not certain).

and the resizing doesn't make sense, or at least not without reducing cost. They are now useless for their investment. Or am I missing something?

*Probably* someone missing something then, if the cost isn't reduced. Here's the thread I was thinking of:

Optional rule for Polybian armies: Triarii maniples. Historically these were half the size of the hastati and principes maniples. There are two ways of representing this. The simplest is to recruit half the number of units of triarii. My personal preference is to go into the EDU and halve their size, cost and upkeep.

[Biggieboy]

yeah, that's probably what they did. But I think they forgot to reduce the cost and upkeep, because they still cost the same as camillan ones (about 1600), but only have half the numbers. So to get the same amount of polybian triarii, that would cost me double! so I just recruit the camillan ones. Unfortunately, the same goes with the pedites extraordinarii, they cost 1900 for a unit of 42 (a normal size "squad" has 82). It's cheaper to use mercenaries!

Is there a (easy) way to edit it? That would be highly appreciated

anyways, thanks for all the information

[Entropy Judge]

You'd need to go into the EDU.txt file and edit the numbers back to what they're supposed to be. So the P Triarii should (normally) look like this:


soldier roman_infantry_triarii, 40, 0, 1.2

and the Pedites E should look like this:

soldier samnite_infantry_heavyinfantry_peditesextraordinarii, 40, 0, 1.18

The red number is the number of men in the unit, and should be the only number you need to change. Make a backup before you change anything - changes made are savegame compatible, but if you accidentally make a mistake and either remove or add something that the game doesn't recognize, it can crash your game, and it's easier to fix the problem if you have a clean version that you know works. The file you need to change is:

export_descr_unit.txt
C:\The Creative Assembly\Rome - Total War\EB\Data (your own location may differ somewhat, but all you need to do is get into your Rome folder to match any discrepancies.

There is also an SP EDU Backup (in its own folder in the EB main folder) that you might need to change. I think. I don't know, really, I've never modded any of the units in EB. I've done it for vanilla Rome, so I know what I've told you won't make your computer explode or summon Nyarlathotep; I'd try changing just the EDU in the Data folder first, and if that doesn't change anything, then try changing the the Backup version.

One more caveat: Don't check the numbers of any existing units you have lying around, the game doesn't track that; isntead, see how many men a new unit would have in it.