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Thread: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

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  1. #1
    Rhah's Avatar S'eer of Fnords
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    Default Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    Just found this article. Not being an expert on the scriptures, I don't really have much opinion on whether this guy could be right or wrong, but what I do know is that Satan doesnt seem that bad really. I mean, God has wiped out entire civilisations because they offended him, and all Satan has done is to try and help you enhance your life with a bit of enjoyment.

    Anywho, here's the article.

    From some Aussie site

    THE Devil has been unfairly and wilfully maligned and deserves a reassessment, according to a new study.

    Professor Henry Ansgar Kelly, a medievalist, says the Devil has had unfair press and has been the victim of groundless aspersions. Satan is no more evil than the head of MI5 or the prime minister, he says.

    In his book Satan: A Biography, to be published by Cambridge University Press this month, the California university academic argues that interpretation of the Bible shows that the Devil suffered a "severe blackening of character" by the clergy, early church fathers, artists, philosophers and religious scholars. The "Devil is in the detail" - literally, he says.

    The reassessment of Satan comes hot on the heels of attempts to recast Judas in saintly form. Professor Kelly does not go as far as that, but he does call on theologians to consider whether the Devil is as bad as traditionally depicted.

    Instead of being the personification of evil, Satan is a "divine functionary" whose kingdom is the earth, he says.

    "My advice is, forget about evil and worry about evil deeds and the people who commit them," he said.

    His interpretation is accepted by many biblical scholars. The theory provides an explanation for the presence of evil and suffering, without denying the existence or omniscience of God.

    Professor Kelly refers to traditional texts, such as the Lord's Prayer, where the line "Deliver us from evil" is written in some prayer books as "Deliver us from the Evil One".

    Most Christians believe that Satan was an angel named Lucifer who rebelled against God at the beginning of Creation. After being thrown out of Heaven, he tempted Adam and Eve into sin, and since then has strived to win souls for his kingdom of Hell.

    But Professor Kelly argues that none of this is in the Bible, and that it represents conclusions drawn by the early church fathers and read back into the Bible.

    He argues from Revelation, at the end of the Christian Scriptures, that Satan remains in Heaven, as the "accuser of humankind", and will stay there until the Battle of Armageddon, when he will be imprisoned in the abyss. After a brief release, he will be imprisoned in the lake of fire for eternity.

    He says Lucifer is not synonymous with Satan, arguing that in the Hebrew Bible, only the King of Babylon is called Lucifer, or the morning star, cast down to earth (Isaiah xiv, 12). In the New Testament, Jesus is referred to as the star of the morning (II Peter i, 19). Nor is Satan the serpent who tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, he says.

    Professor Kelly argues from Luke iv that Satan is a minister of God in charge of the world.

    "He's a government heavy, whose main job is to test human beings and to accuse them of their misdeeds, but he is cynical and overzealous in performing his duties," the professor says. "We can think of an unscrupulous and feared official investigator or prosecutor, like J.Edgar Hoover or senator Joseph McCarthy"
    "Moral indignation is jealousy with a Halo" - H.G. Wells.


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  2. #2
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    Intresting view. Does the bible ever mention Satan in hell before the coming of the apocolypse?
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  3. #3
    God's Avatar Shnitzled In The Negev
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    Someone decided to count up all the people God has murdered:

    http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot....od-killed.html

    The total is 2,038,334. This only includes times when specific numbers are given, so doesn't include many other things like the flood and Egyptian first-born sons.

    Satan, on the other hand, has killed 10 people. And they were in a bet with God so he shares the blame.

    Also, if it wasn't for Satan, Adam and Eve wouldn't have ate the apple and we would be living in Eden, not really even having free will. Satan did us a favour. It's clear to me who the most 'evil' out of the two is...

    If I actually believed any of this I would almost be serious.
    Last edited by God; August 18, 2006 at 12:40 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    Thing is people who actually do believe in Satan and God are clearly not showing the rationality required to make such connections.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    Neither of them exist.

    Thread closed.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    I prefer to view Lucifer as the Greatest freedom fighter in the history of time.

    Giving up eternal bliss for the right of self determination but with the price of damnation forever more.

    Considering the way he behaves to Humanity in convincing us to eat the fruit from the tree of life and think for ourselves his ideal of freedom seems to pervade his character.

    Furthermore when in the wildernesse with Jesus he "Tempts" Jesus not simply to abandon his mission, but rather to think for himself and be free of God's designs.

    Lucifer's reocurring goal seems to be to free humanity from the clutches of God's will. Let humanity live free and for itself rather than in servitude.

    To be honest he sounds like an all American hero...

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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    hehe the title of the thread reminds me of a line in the movie "end of days"
    Satan: Let me tell you something about Him. He is the biggest underachiever of all time. He just has a good publicist, that's all.
    And yeah, Satan is in a way a freedom fighter.
    Too bad that people has been so brainwashed to see that.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    I've always wondered where the ''Lucifer got kicked out of heaven'' thing came from anyway. I've read most of the Old Testament - to the psalms which were so boring I gave up - and I never found any mention about the Lucifer's origins. But for some reason he has always been assiocated with hell, purgatory and fire - even to the point where the Dutch word for matches is 'lucifers'.

    About the theory itself, the following part made me raise an eyebrow:

    His interpretation is accepted by many biblical scholars. The theory provides an explanation for the presence of evil and suffering, without denying the existence or omniscience of God.
    No wonder it's so 'widely accepted', it's always useful if you have a theory that explains the presence of both evil on earth and God in heaven.

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    LegionnaireX's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    None of you know what you are talking about.

    According to scripture Satan is the embodiment of evil. He entices people to turn away from good will and morality in favor of selfishness and indulgence. Once you have reverted to such a lifestyle Satan controls you through your desires. Given this information it is impossible to say that the biblical Satan is not bad.

    I've always wondered where the ''Lucifer got kicked out of heaven'' thing came from anyway. I've read most of the Old Testament - to the psalms which were so boring I gave up - and I never found any mention about the Lucifer's origins. But for some reason he has always been assiocated with hell, purgatory and fire - even to the point where the Dutch word for matches is 'lucifers'.
    You won't find that information in the bible. I forget the actual name but the story of lucifer's rebellion is in another Jewish book excluded from the Torah.
    Last edited by LegionnaireX; August 18, 2006 at 12:32 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    None of you know what you are talking about.

    According to scripture Satan is the embodiment of evil. He entices people to turn away from good will and morality in favor of selfishness and indulgence. Once you have reverted to such a lifestyle Satan controls you through your desires. Given this information it is impossible to say that the biblical Satan is not bad.
    Yes you are correct i am an ignorant wretch.

    Your entire post debases itself in the second line.

    "According to scripture" eh? Wow see i thought we were discussing the possibility of Scripture characterising Satan as evil merely as a tool to anthropomorphise evil.

    without even really looking at his actions they just "say" he is evil

  11. #11
    LegionnaireX's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    Quote Originally Posted by rez
    Yes you are correct i am an ignorant wretch.

    Your entire post debases itself in the second line.

    "According to scripture" eh? Wow see i thought we were discussing the possibility of Scripture characterising Satan as evil merely as a tool to anthropomorphise evil.

    without even really looking at his actions they just "say" he is evil
    And without scripture what basis do you have that Satan even exists? None.

    If you accept that Satan exists as an entity then you must also accept the authenticity and credibility of scripture. Seeing that religion and scripture is the only thing with any expertise or even mention of the subject of Satan, you can't have one without the other.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    On the subject of the Devil I can only but reffer one to the speech by the Devil, played by the man that must have a pact with him, Al Pacino, in The Devil's Advocate...

    Quoting from memory: on God - "God is an absentee landlord... ", on the relationship between the Devil and man - "I am a fan of man! " (spoken to sound like "phenomen"), on rules and sin - "Look but don't touch, touch but don't taste, taste but don't swallow..."
    Last edited by MoROmeTe; August 18, 2006 at 01:01 PM.


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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    So you are saying that the church could be wrong about what it teaches about Satan?
    the Church could be wrong on many things it teaches.

    My point still stands. Scripture is the only source of information regarding the biblical figure, Satan. According to it Satan is untruthful and evil. What you are saying is " I believe Satan exists, but all of the information reguarding who he is and what he stands for is wrong." If what the bible says is accurate Satan is evil, if it is not then Satan might not even exist.
    So by that logic you believe that Genesis is an entirely true event because the scripture alone teaches it and you acknowledge the existence of scripture?

    Do you not see that by making that argument you are saying that ALL of the bible is literally true?

    Why can't there be mistakes in the way that the devil is portrayed? it is quite logical to see the servants of God slandering his enemy


    If Satan is not the rebellious and dishonest soul that is the enemy of God than who else would he be?
    As a historian i look for innaccuracies and bias in everything i read. I treat Scripture as i would a historical article, because it is written by fallible man. Basically im looking at the events and only the events. From there i can postulate a logical look at what happened rather than just listen to what the priest tells me.

    What we can denote from a universe in which we have God, Lucifer and the angels is that at some point Lucifer, a paticularly graceful angel, rebelled from God and was cast out to live in excruciating pain.

    We have an angle living in the bliss of god's company who realises he is entirely trapped and a slave to a vengeful master. This angel then sacrifices the eternal satisfaction of heaven and replaces it with unbelievable torment for all time. Why? Because he wanted to be his own master, to determine his own life! A nobler gesture would be hard to find.

    How can you say that the desire to live free is a sin? Unfortunatley snubbing God can be construed as a sin by the almighty.

    The desire to live free is very easily distorted to seem like a desire for decadent all abandon or responsibility and morality.

    Why do i see this as a noble gesture rather than a run for explicitly evil immorality? Because Satan gets no reward for his rebellion other than the comfy knowledge that he is no longer a slave. He has to live with utter agony - the angels too cowardly or comfortable to speak up are the ones living in the easy bliss of heaven.

    His actions in meddling with the world of man further reflect his love of freedom rather than evil. In eden he removed humanity from utter bliss and gave them cold hard freedom. How exactly does that show Satan attempting to lure humanity into an immoral trap of decadence?

    As such Lucifer is a freedom fighter to match the likes of Leonidas.
    Last edited by rez; August 18, 2006 at 01:37 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    if we take an even more simplistic veiw, assume the bible is 100% correct.
    Then we have satan to thank for the very existance of our civilization.
    If he had not tempted adam, human kind would never have left the garden of eden.
    And would never have grown to what it is today.

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    LegionnaireX's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    What we can denote from a universe in which we have God, Lucifer and the angels is that at some point Lucifer, a paticularly graceful angel, rebelled from God and was cast out to live in excruciating pain.

    We have an angle living in the bliss of god's company who realises he is entirely trapped and a slave to a vengeful master. This angel then sacrifices the eternal satisfaction of heaven and replaces it with unbelievable torment for all time. Why? Because he wanted to be his own master, to determine his own life! A nobler gesture would be hard to find.
    Wrong. Satan did not leave heaven in search of freedom from a vengeful master. Thats fictitious. According to the mythology, Satan was arragont and desired power. He seduced fellow angels into his idealogy of indulgence and greed and then tried to overthrow the righteouss God. You can believe if you want that Satan was just in search of personal freedom from an evil God, but that comes from nowhere but your own mind.

    How can you say that the desire to live free is a sin? Unfortunatley snubbing God can be construed as a sin by the almighty.
    Living free is not a sin as long as it doesn't involve selfishness, greed and disreguard for his own creator.

    Why do i see this as a noble gesture rather than a run for explicitly evil immorality? Because Satan gets no reward for his rebellion other than the comfy knowledge that he is no longer a slave. He has to live with utter agony - the angels too cowardly or comfortable to speak up are the ones living in the easy bliss of heaven.
    Fiction. Thats all this is. You can believe it all you want but to say your own intellectual concoction has more authority than the original text is absurd. Angels were not slaves working against their will but working for good at there pleasure. Lucifer, however, chose to turn from righteoussness into self indulgence and lust, at the cost of being expelled from heaven.

    His actions in meddling with the world of man further reflect his love of freedom rather than evil. In eden he removed humanity from utter bliss and gave them cold hard freedom. How exactly does that show Satan attempting to lure humanity into an immoral trap of decadence?
    Satan only meddles with the affairs of humans for personal gain. He enticed Adam and Eve to turn against their God, not for their own good but so that he may hurt his enemy. With the knowledge granted them God's creation would do great evils and turn against his righteouss ways.

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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    Satan is not evil at all when you come to think about it.
    All Satan really does is torture evil people in hell. Whats even about that?
    Not to mention the fact that God has killed 2,038,334 at least and Satan has only killed 10 people. Oh, and Satan gives us free will.
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    LegionnaireX's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    But you still view Satan as someone of evil and trickery right? I combating their claims that Satan was somehow "good" or "not so bad."

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    Quote Originally Posted by LegionnaireX
    But you still view Satan as someone of evil and trickery right?
    not really, since I don't believe God is all good but rather simply a creator
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    If Satan is so evil, then why did God create him?
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Professor says that "Satan is victim of bad PR"

    Lucifer represented questioning, inquiriing free spirit.

    From the Quran:

    When we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam," they fell prostrate, except Satan; he refused, was too arrogant, and a disbeliever. [2:34]

    We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute! [18:50]

    He said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?" He said, "I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from mud." He said, "Therefore, you must go down, for you are not to be arrogant here. Get out; you are debased." [7:12-13]

    ------------

    Satan was invented and portrayed as a monster because insecure tribals in the desert also thought that all creativity, inquiry and liberty was monstrous. The semites (arabs & jews) always were terrified of the very idea of free choice - which is why they cast these beauties of life as evil.

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