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Thread: Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms - 4th century mod project

  1. #1

    Default Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms - 4th century mod project

    十六國春秋
    Shíliùguó Chūnqiū

    OVERVIEW:
    Brief Introduction to the history behind the mod:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The main objective of the mod is to depict the instability in Asia during and after the great migrations happening until the 4th century.
    To be precise, it will cover the so called Wu Hu (five barbarian peoples) Uprising (五胡亂華 - Wǔhú luànhuá). It started after the War of the Eight Princes, with a massive (Southern) Xiongnu uprising in 304. In 311 the chinese capitals Luoyang (洛陽) and Chang'an (長安) were sacked.
    The uprising culminated in the migration of the Jin Dynasty to the south and the creation of several short lived states in Northern China, most under 'barbarian' lords. Some of these dynasties managed to unify northern China for brief periods, but for most of the time the whole region was under heavy instability thanks to border pressures.
    The five peoples (Wu Hu) are the Xiongnu, Xianbei, Jie, Di and Qiang peoples. The Sixteen Kingdoms created during the period are as follow:

    The factions cointained in "[]"s are not counted among the 16 Kingdoms. The factions cointained in "{}"s are not even in China-proper.

    First starting by the dominant chinese dynasty at the time:
    晉朝 Jin Dynasty (265-420) (Han 漢)
    - 西晉 Western Jin (265-316) (Han 漢)
    - 東晉 Eastern Jin (317-420) (Han 漢)

    {吐谷渾 Tuyuhun (285-670) (Murong Xianbei 慕容鮮卑)}


    成漢 Cheng-Han (304-347) (Cong 賨 (or Bandun 板楯)/ Di 氐)
    前趙 Former Zhao/Han Zhao (304-329) (Xiongnu 匈奴)
    前涼 Former Liang (320-376) (Han 漢)
    後趙 Later Zhao (319-351) (Jie 羯)
    [代 Dai (315-376) (Tuoba Xianbei 拓跋鮮卑)]
    [前仇池 Former Qiuchi (296-371) (BaiXiang Di 白項氐)]


    前燕 Former Yan (337-370) (Murong Xianbei 慕容鮮卑)
    前秦 Former Qin (351-394) (Di 氐)
    [冉魏 Ran Wei (350-352) (Han 漢)]
    {柔然可汗 Rouran Khaganate (330-555) (Rouran Xianbei 柔然鮮卑)}


    [西燕 Western Yan (384-394) (Murong Xianbei 慕容鮮卑)]
    後燕 Later Yan (384-409) (Murong Xianbei 慕容鮮卑)
    後秦 Later Qin (384-417) (Shaodang Qiang 燒當羌)
    後涼 Later Liang (387-403) (Di 氐)
    [魏 Wei (388-392) (DingLing 丁零)]
    [後仇池 Later Qiuchi (385-443) (BaiXiang Di 白項氐)]


    南燕 Southern Yan (398-410) (Murong Xianbei 慕容鮮卑)
    北燕 Northern Yan (407-436) (Han 漢)
    西秦 Western Qin (387-431) (Zi Xianbei 貲虜鮮卑)
    夏 Xia (407-421) (Tiefu Xiongnu 鐵弗匈奴)
    南涼 Southern Liang (387-414) (Tufa Xianbei 禿髮鮮卑)
    西涼 Western Liang (400-421) (Han 漢)
    北涼 Northern Liang (397-442) (Lushui Xiongnu 盧水匈奴)
    While the five peoples are not ethnically Han Chineses, one has to keep in mind the region was under Han control for some centuries, and so most of the dynasties formed were heavily sinicized.
    To the north, strong un-sinicized Xianbei tribes were unified under a Xianbei state until 329 and then under the Rouran (or Juan Juan) Khaganate until 555.
    To the south, the now called Eastern Jin Dynasty remained until 420.
    To the west lays the Xianbei Tuyuhun Kingdom, founded before the uprising, in the Tarim Basin several weakened turkic oasis kingdoms and further west some Xiongnu states founded by the northern branch of the ethnicity that fled westward.
    To the east, in the korean peninsula, the three kingdoms, Silla, Baekje and Goguryeo (reformed in the last decades after a crushing defeat to the Cao Wei in the previous century, and now mantaining pretensions over the nearest chinese provinces) are still in an unresolved unification war.


    Scope of the mod:
    The focus of the mod is really on China and the near steppes to the north, during the whole 4th century and maybe extending into the 5th century. The 31 faction slots will be really enought to keep all the relevant factions. As an extension, it wouldn't be too far fetched to plan to also include the whole Korea on the map.

    I had plans to include India, but now this seems too far fetched. On the other hand, to include the Three Korean kingdoms wouldn't stretch much the scope of the mod.

    Also, about the cultures, I still thinking about it. I know I can manage the different tribes that belong to the same group using the second names or traits. Still, I had plans for 11 cultural groups (a Han culture and sinicized and non-sinicized versions for the 5 Wu Hu ethnicities). Don't know if it's possible to include that many religions in the game, though.

    Concepts (WIP):
    It's reported the Xianbei and Xiongnu armies consisted of massive heavily armoured cavalry detachments and poorer tribesmen equiped as light horse archers. The Di and Qiang provided their own infantry.
    Eventually, every kingdom accepted Han chinese infantry in their ranks.
    The Eastern Jin also fielded their own form of heavy cavalry, albeit lighter than the Wu Hu version.

    I'm yet to decide if it's necessary to have 16 faction representing the 16 Kingdoms (as most of them would be emergent) or if it's better to have five or so factions representing the differents ethnicities, or even if it's better to unify dynasties of the same name (like Han Zhao and Later Zhao, one splitting from the other) and having secondary factions corresponding to 'Given dynasty' Rebels. A drawback would be that the noble ethnicity of a dynasty could change (see the various Liang and Yan dynasties).

    The title:
    The four words that formed the (provisory) first title of the mod are from this excerpt, written in Jie original language and subject to various studies:
    秀支 替戾剛 僕谷 劬禿當
    That roughly translates as [BAZIN, 1948]:
    Send the army to attack, capture the commander!
    While alternative translations are provided, I liked the sound of it.
    The phrase is inscribed in the Book of Jin and refers to the fight between Shi Le (that broke from the Han Zhao and founded Later Zhao in 319) and Liu Yao (emperor of Han Zhao, executed in 329 after a defeat to Later Zhao).

    After reading a bit more about the period, I liked the sounding of:
    十六國春秋
    Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms
    A history detailing the Wǔhú luànhuá, compiled by Cui Hong in the 5th century. So, for now, I'm adopting the second option.
    I also thought about using Wuhu Uprising or Sixteen Kingdoms.


    I'm still open to changing this name, so if you have an idea, send it my way please


    DEVELOPMENT:
    02/06/13:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I'm getting deeper in my researches (I ever learned some words in chinese! haha).
    So, I found this site: http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...iuguo-map.html
    There are 5 maps in there detailing the whole Sixteen Kingdoms period and all the movements between the states.
    In the menu in the right corner you can also browse through other relevant categories, like Events, Religions, Rulers, etc...
    I'll try to sum up it all and post it here later;

    09/06/13:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Using Gigantus tutorials and the International Water Management Institute online maps I created this map:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The Hymalaya and India will probably be unconquerable. I'm focusing on China proper, the northern steppes, the Gobi and Taklamakan deserts and the Tarim Basin. Hope you enjoy

    13/06/13:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    While this is not a big development note, I'd like to point that I'm getting more and more interested in all this!
    Also, I discovered the southern non-Han peoples were often resettled in border garrisons or in metropolitan areas to work as slaves after rebellions. That's why you can find the Ba/Cong/Di Cheng Han, the Ba were a tribe of the Linjun people while the Cong (or Pangu) were also a different Miao people. All of them (except the Di, of course) emigrated from south-western central China.

    16/06/13:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Some of the map files are already done. That's a start at least haha

    28/06/13:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It's pretty hard to find reference pics for the armors and weapons of this Era. I think I'll base the units on later Han and early Song. Also, I'm obviously looking for illustrations of the Battle of Fei River (淝水之战) (because there are plenty). Here's what I already found:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    30/06/13
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I found this nice and informative thread at chinahistoryforums (great forum, btw).
    Reading this topic, I changed my mind about the 8 Princes Rebellion. It seems only six of them really engaged in any combat, so I think I can afford to include all them as separate factions. Let's see how this will work...
    I also found LOTS of reference pics for chinese armour (I will use mostly Han and Jin armours, which I suppose represent accurately the era).

    02/07/13
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Some REAL development at last!
    This will be the shield used by chinese sword infantry:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    04/07/13
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I still need to decide which regions I should include in the map and all the groundtypes too...
    Also, I need to decide which ethnicities I'll include in the mod (just to remember myself, I already got all the others above (it's interesting to note that Dingling are actually Turks), Saka (Sai 塞), Tocharians (Yuezhi 月氏), Wusun (烏孫), Wuhuan (烏桓) plus several man tribes in the south (and I'm not even touching the Yue, Miao, and other south from there yet).
    ~~~~
    This will be the crossbow used by the south and southwest peoples:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    This one is a long version. There is also a shorter version avaiable. It's from the Yunnan province and is commonly used (with poisoned arrows) in hunting activities.

    12/07/13
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I've found these nice reads (with some debateable pictures):
    (The Battle of Fei River) http://www.86wiki.com/view/21149.htm
    (The Eastern Jin) http://www.86wiki.com/view/23932.htm
    I also finished the spearmen tower shield, used by the Jin soldiers. Will post some pictures ASAP.

    12/07/13
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    As I promised earlier, here is it:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I'm still sorting the colours and the curvatures/scale of the shields.
    Also, I already know the next models on my list: probably a chinese crossbow, an oval shield and another tower shield design, then I may start to model the melee weapons.


    BANNERS:
    I made this banner myself, feel free to put it in your sig if you must!
    It also has some symbolism, the orchid in the left corner represents the spring while the chrysanthemum in the right corner signifies the autumn (according to chinese symbology).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    THANKS TO:
    - Razor, Vladyvid, MathiasOfAthens and Xerrop (for the advices).
    - Gigantus (for his mapping tutorials)
    - danny X (for helping me to get the campaign map to work)
    Last edited by Yayattasa; July 12, 2013 at 09:12 PM. Reason: Changed the project's name


  2. #2
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    My bet is that if you would make a 3rd century mod like that, stretching from Western Europe to China/Korea/japan, you'd need to make a lot of sacrifices in terms of factions and gameplay. Personally, I'm not too fond of Eurasian things myself, because you'd most probably end up with a lot of generic factions. A mod centered on the Roman empire of the 3rd century alone could fill in most if not all of the 31 faction slots, especially if you consider the number of rebellions that occurred even after emperor Aurelian managed to reunite the Roman empire and the different barbarian tribes.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Thanks for the advice Razor! I'll try to make a map first, if it's unreliable I'll drop the idea.
    But, yeah, I would need to sacrifice at least the province number. Three Kingdom china would likely have only 14 provinces.
    And the eurasian nomads would feel almost equal in the start, so I would pick only the most iconic ones (Xiongnu, Xianbei, Huns, Sarmatians etc.)


  4. #4
    Marvzilla's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Really don´t want to come off as an ass, but why start your own mod ? There are several others who are in need of new recruits, and would most probably be very happy if you joined them. Maybe Asia Ton Barbaron, or some of the others, like East of Rome.

  5. #5
    Vladyvid's Avatar Wizard of Turmish
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Personally I think its not a good idea to have europe with asia together in a mod thats not in a colonial period. One reason is that those european and far east asian factions had historically no contacts with eachother back then (or only trade, but only some) and other reasons were already mentioned before - many factions left out, simplified map regions - hence loss of many interesting details both in asia and europe. Then you'd also have to include a large chunk of africa making for even more sacrifices everywhere. Is it worth to sacrifice that much for a mod like this? I don't know.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Well, they had much more contact than you could think.
    Migrant groups from central asia (that were in an almost constant war with the Han) appeared in the middle-east and even in europe.
    The Kushan Empire helped the Han in some campaigns against northern nomads in the 1st century.
    Some roman (probably a merchant) reached China a few centuries earlier.
    In the first century, the Han even tried to send an emissary to Rome.
    Of course, during the Three Kingdoms, diplomatic relations started to disappear thanks to the civil war.

    The thing is, the contact between Rome and Han is not the focal point of the mod, like when you play the vanilla campaign as Englang and never get to see the Rus or the Hungarians, for example. Of course, Total War means Alternative History, so you can pick some legions and march all the way to Beijing if you must.
    What if you picked Shu Han, reunified China and marched trough the Tarim Basin reaching Sassanid lands?

    I thought about making it later 3rd century, with China already unified under the Jin, but then we would miss some central asia groups.

    But really, the point of the mod is to have three great powers, one in Europe, one in Persia and one in the Far East, and I wanted to concile the period with the existance of the Roman Empire.

    It's possibly to concile the Gallic, Roman, Palmyrene and Sassanid Empires and the Jin Dinasty, around 260 AD.


  7. #7
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    The problem with the MEII and Rome engine is the faction limit. A Eurasian mod is doable but it will suffer from the booting of a lot of interesting tribes and factions because of the hardcoded faction limit.

    My suggest is therefore Cut off one half of the map. Preferably the Eastern half. China and Rome cannot really fit well on this engine in one campaign. Though it would be interesting it is just not that possible.

    You could make a 3rd century mod in Europe and the Near-East with a full faction list of all the major players plus tribes and city-states. Sassanids, arab tribes (multiple factions), Germans (multiple factions), Dacians (multiple factions), Picts and other british celtic tribes.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    There are mods with campaigns maps that cover the americas, northern africa and europe. I can't really see how my map differs from theirs.
    Also, I think the 'most passive' germanic, iranian and mongollic tribes don't really deserve a faction slot. We must remember there are 31 faction slots, and the Empires cover most of the map.


  9. #9
    Vladyvid's Avatar Wizard of Turmish
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    There are mods with campaigns maps that cover the americas, northern africa and europe. I can't really see how my map differs from theirs.
    Mods with maps covering the americans, europe and northern africa are set in the colonial period - when europeans pretty much conquered most of those other continents so thats how its justified. Your map is different because in general in the period you are suggesting, neither european, nor the asian empires conquered one another - asian wars were taking place in asia, european wars in europe. I think it's hard not to see the difference, but maybe I'm wrong.

    Anyways it would be interesting mod if you make it your way no doubt, but you asked people for their opinions right?

  10. #10
    Vladyvid's Avatar Wizard of Turmish
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Sorry - double post. That's cause of the new forums - everything is messed up for me. Long load time, breaking connection, server down errors etc. Was far better before the changes, now it's a problem for me to even log in sometimes, when I post the connection gets lost, and when I log back in I see I double posted...
    Last edited by Vladyvid; March 01, 2013 at 02:52 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Of course I asked for opinions, but this is not an unilateral conversation, is it? xP
    In the colonial period the europeans brought war from Europe to Africa, Asia and America. In the 3rd century the iranian and mongollic tribes brought war from Asia to Europe, and they conquered a lot of land too.
    (and I'm also having issues with the forum the way it is haha, this post took some hours to work)
    Last edited by Yayattasa; March 02, 2013 at 03:07 PM.


  12. #12
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Difference is there were more important states in the 3rd century in Europe, ME, and Asia than in the colonial period. You had the major empires in europe but a lack of small tribal states that did play important roles. Your free to make a mod covering the vast landscape your proposing but it is an entirely different game when you have several competing barbarian tribes instead of one minor faction lumped together. Game just plays out differently.

    Your mod would have to sacrifice several factions and tribes. For instance. Freeing up one side could give you the option to create rebel factions within the Roman Empire. You have a vast roman empire at the start of the game. However, within the Roman Empire you have potential states that could rebel and seek independence. From rebel generals to tribes like the Basques, Dacians or whomever. It would create a unique game.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    The thing is I still cannot see it filling the 31 factions. I'll try to elaborate a faction list soon...


  14. #14
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mladjov/files/romana271.jpg
    http://worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_200ad.jpg
    http://worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_300ad.jpg

    Hard to find other maps as detailed as these. Unfortunately, the guy who made the last two maps didnt make any for 225 ad.

    However, You can see a lot of factions there already. However, Say you want the emerging rebels from the first link, that is at least 5 factions right there.

    Other maps:
    Non political map: http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mladjov/f...omana235ad.jpg

    Lets look at this map:

    http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mladjov/files/romana271.jpg

    3 (min) Roman factions.
    11 (min) barbarians north of the Rhine and North-West of the Danube.
    3 (min) barbarian tribes in the British Isles. **** Ireland. Nah I'm just kidding... they can be in it too. 3 for them.
    1 Armenia
    1 Persia
    1 African tribe, Numidians, Mauri or Libyans. I would prefer 2: Mauri and Libyans. Opens up two fronts.
    2 arab tribes
    2 Georgian tribes
    = 27 factions (including 3 irish tribes). However, I'd remove 2 irish buggers for 2 more European barbarian tribes.
    Sarmatians, Alans, Huns or Goths/heruls in the steppes could also join in.
    Hardly, any room for the above steppe barbarians and thats not including the minor faction (slave/rebel) slot.

    Honestly, mate I'd love to see the map you are describing made but there is too many factions that should go in... Look at the eastern map I provided above it shows dozens of factions in India alone. Plus several states in Iran, the Parthians plus a smaller state called Persia. But that was 200Ad. But the map clearly shows hundreds of states between the Near-East and China. Too many to not include. And I want a lot of german barbarians. Imagine games with tons of german tribes... every game would be different. A different tribe might invade the next time.
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; March 02, 2013 at 04:36 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    The thing is all these germanic tribes would be almost exactly equal. I can't see much changed between them other than name, starting location and faction symbol. I'm more inclined for adding active rebels to represent them and pick only the most aggressive (I mean aggressive against Rome) to be playable. Of course, done that, wouldn't be much of hassle to do a Europe only map adding lots of the copy-paste factions.
    Btw, nice maps from the University of Michingan, never saw these before.
    ~~~~
    Also, I was not planning to add the Indian kingdoms.
    ~~
    Thinking about the map dimensions, it looks like it would be over stretched. The distance between europe and china is really big , so we could end with a thin map.

    ~~~~
    The more I look the map the more I hate the faction slots limit
    Last edited by Yayattasa; March 03, 2013 at 08:35 AM.


  16. #16
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Yeah the faction slot limit is a real shame. Dont understand why CA had such a low faction limit for a game that came out in the mid 2000s.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    This is what I have in mind:
    1 - Xiongnu (Southern Xiongnu)
    2 - Wuhuan
    3 - Xianbei
    4 - Huns (Probably start as Northern Xiongnu, albeit debatable, or emergent faction)
    5 - Wei
    6 - Shu
    7 - Wu
    8 - Jin (emergent)
    9 - Chiang
    10 - Sarmatians
    11 - Sassanians
    12 - Alans
    13 - Roxolani
    14 - Chionites
    15 - Goths
    16 - Vandals
    17 - Saxons
    18 - Angles
    19 - Lombards
    20 - Frisi
    21 - Suebi
    22 - Roman Empire
    23 - Palmyrene Empire (emergent)
    24 - Gallic Empire (emergent)
    25 - Caledonians

    This is what I have in mind. It's a good compromise, and the three great nations are under threat from several other peoples. I still must find a way to 'disunite' the Sassanians (as I did with the Three Kingdoms and the two emergent Roman factions).
    There's still room for more factions (more rebels? more germanic tribes??)

    ~~~~
    Is there an iconic (and somewhat powerful) arabian tribe?
    The Lakhmids?

    ~~~~
    I must say I enjoy playing as the berbers in Barbarian Invasion, maybe I should consider a north africa desert people?
    Also, there are still some open slots, maybe it's time to consider regional rebellions in Rome, one faction for each macro region.

    ~~~~
    This project resurfaced in the forums: AD 600
    Basically the same idea I had but in the 7th century AD (not really my taste)
    Last edited by Yayattasa; March 04, 2013 at 08:42 AM.


  18. #18
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    I'd like another German tribe, the Marcomanni and the Franks would be great.

    You also need the Armenians, an arab tribe (Lakhmids), and perhaps Iberia in Georgia.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    I've been rereading a lot the previews from IB: Restitvtor Orbis. They really cover the whole western part of my idea.
    Of now, I'm thinking about unit rosters. I still have a doubt of how to deal with the different kinds of javelin for the late Romans (Spiculum and Plubatae more proeminently), I know M2 allows for more than one special per unit. Must sort it out.


  20. #20

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    I tried my hand at making a map from scratch, but it really sucks. Is there any world map tool (where I can get height maps, I think I can sort the vegetation types by myself)?


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