WARSHIPS - discussion (Updated 24th July - SELEUCIDS, RHODIANS, THRACIANS & MACEDONIANS added)

[KLAssurbanipal]

PTOLAMAIC WARSHIPS - RECONSTRUCTIONS


Pentera - ship of Ptolemy II (the 3rd century BC)



Léontophoros (Léontophore), owned by Lysimachus, king of Thrace, offered Ptolemy II:





Poliera - ship of Ptolemy III (246-221 BC)




Quadragintarema / Tessarakonteres - ship of Ptolemy IV (the 3rd century BC) - the largest galley ever!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarakonteres


Hektera - ship of Cleopatra (31 BC)






SELEUCIDS:

Pentera, 200 BC







Macedonian Heptera:





Hemiolia - Thracian warship, 200 BC:




Trihémiolia - Rhodian warship, 120 BC






More soon...





From the 4th century BC on, new types of oared warships appeared in the Mediterranean Sea, superseding the trireme and transforming naval warfare. Ships became increasingly bigger and heavier, including some of the largest wooden ships ever constructed. These developments were spearheaded in the Hellenistic East, but also to a large extent shared by the naval powers of the Western Mediterranean, more specifically Carthage and the Roman Republic. While the wealthy Successor kingdoms in the East built huge warships ("polyremes"), Carthage and Rome, in the intense naval antagonism during the Punic Wars, relied mostly on medium-sized vessels. At the same time, smaller naval powers employed an array of small and fast craft, which were also used by the ubiquitous pirates. Following the establishment of complete Roman hegemony in the Mediterranean after the battle of Actium, the nascent Roman Empire faced no major naval threats. In the 1st century AD, the larger warships were retained only as flagships, and were gradually supplanted by the light liburnians until, by Late Antiquity, the knowledge of their construction had been lost.


19th-century interpretation of the quinquereme's oaring system, with five levels of oars.



Graffiti from the Greek colony of Nymphaion in the Crimea, depicting a heavy polyreme of the 3rd century BC, with fore- and aft-castles.


Relief of a Rhodian galley

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic-era_warships

[MemnonOfRhodes]

Can't wait to start ramming.
I hope they keep the ships realistic, not add ridiculous ships like the Tessarakonteres.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Can't wait to start ramming.

Ramming? With such huge ships, we'll most likely witness "land" battles between marines.

[MemnonOfRhodes]

Ramming? With such huge ships, we'll most likely witness "land" battles between marines.

I never understood the use of such large ships, a few torches and you got the biggest campfire on sea.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

I never understood the use of such large ships, a few torches and you got the biggest campfire on sea.

It's a pretty easy way to turn a naval battle into a primitive engagement between marines, in which the ships have little to no tactical role. That's what the Macedonians did by fielding quadriremes against the Athenian triremes and it turned out to be successful.

[RexImperator]

I never understood the use of such large ships, a few torches and you got the biggest campfire on sea.

The trouble is your ships are made of wood too and having a fire source big enough to light a quinquereme or bigger on fire requires a bit of thinking. It certainly happened but required careful manoeuvrings and planning.

[torongill]

I never understood the use of such large ships, a few torches and you got the biggest campfire on sea.

Yeah, but you would need to get within ten meters to throw the torch and the catapults and hundreds of archers and javelineers will make you look like a hedgehog before you get in range. On the other hand, there are hundreds of very motivated hands that are ready to extinguish any fire.

These large ships were very stable artillery platforms. You could just put as many catapults and missile troops are the ship could carry and then punch a hole in the enemy line, through which other smaller ships could break through.

[eighthgear]

I never understood the use of such large ships, a few torches and you got the biggest campfire on sea.

While fire was undoubtably an effective weapon in ancient naval warfare, it wasn't that easy to set a ship ablaze. Many types of wood are decently resilient to burning easily, and you got a lot of people around to try to put the fire out. IMO, ships in Shogun 2 were set aflame a bit too easily.

[Orphydian]

While fire was undoubtably an effective weapon in ancient naval warfare, it wasn't that easy to set a ship ablaze. Many types of wood are decently resilient to burning easily, and you got a lot of people around to try to put the fire out. IMO, ships in Shogun 2 were set aflame a bit too easily.

are you denying the mighty power of Arhimede's flaming mirrors

[Orphydian]

Ramming? With such huge ships, we'll most likely witness "land" battles between marines.

yes and that even more likely if we consider that you need to handle clusters of ships instead of singular ships

[PlPs]

I love naval forces. especially this era. also wondering Pontian navy.

a few pics from my archive

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Sharpe]

Drowning is such a horrible death. Such a bad way to go. I'm a lifeguard as well, kind of ironic its my worst fear.

It does concern me how the Celts/Germans will compete with these beast warships. Or will they just have to accept the sea doesn't belong to them.

[MemnonOfRhodes]

Drowning is such a horrible death. Such a bad way to go. I'm a lifeguard as well, kind of ironic its my worst fear.

It does concern me how the Celts/Germans will compete with these beast warships. Or will they just have to accept the sea doesn't belong to them.

Fear is a good motivator

Remember that naval supremacy is mainly to protect trade and disrupt your enemies trade, but I can see what you mean.
If you conquer Rome as Gaul you will need a navy to protect your Mediterranean trade routes.

[Stavroforos]

Drowning is such a horrible death. Such a bad way to go. I'm a lifeguard as well, kind of ironic its my worst fear.

It does concern me how the Celts/Germans will compete with these beast warships. Or will they just have to accept the sea doesn't belong to them.

I hope the latter will be the case. I will be very disappointed if the barbarians can build warships to rival Greco-Roman ships of the period, especially since none of the playable barbarian factions were ever renown for their sea-faring or sea-fighting prowess.

[Keyser]

I hope the latter will be the case. I will be very disappointed if the barbarians can build warships to rival Greco-Roman ships of the period, especially since none of the playable barbarian factions were ever renown for their sea-faring or sea-fighting prowess.

It's a most often used and maybe the sole known exemple, but the veneti sail-ships were surprisingly difficult to beat for the romans.
Sure Caesar prevailed, but "barbarian" ships weren't necessarilly inferiors.

[KillaJules]

I hope the latter will be the case. I will be very disappointed if the barbarians can build warships to rival Greco-Roman ships of the period, especially since none of the playable barbarian factions were ever renown for their sea-faring or sea-fighting prowess.

False.

The Gaulish Veneti had an overwhelmingly better fleet than any one from the Mediterranean. They were far more maneuverable and much faster than Roman/Hellenic galleys and taller making them nearly impossible to intercept and immune to boarding attacks. Veneti ships were built so much more strongly than Roman/Hellenic ships that the Veneti fleet was immune to ramming attacks as well.

The only way that the Romans under Caesar could board the Veneti was by using their very long billhooks to cut the rigging causing the sails to go limp, thus immobilising them and then relying on boarding actions. The Roman/Hellenic factions would be almost helpless against Veneti fleets.



Roman/Hellenic ships were built for the relatively calm Mediterranean, not the raging waters of the north Atlantic.

[RexImperator]

The only way that the Romans under Caesar could board the Veneti was by using their very long billhooks to cut the rigging causing the sails to go limp, thus immobilising them and then relying on boarding actions. The Roman/Hellenic factions would be almost helpless against Veneti fleets.

Immobilised Gallic ships make the Greco-Roman navies helpless...yeah, that makes complete sense.

[KillaJules]

Immobilised Gallic ships make the Greco-Roman navies helpless...yeah, that makes complete sense.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The Greco-Roman ships were helpless until Caesar figured out how to immobilise them.

[Pinarius]

False.

The Gaulish Veneti had an overwhelmingly better fleet than any one from the Mediterranean. They were far more maneuverable and much faster than Roman/Hellenic galleys and taller making them nearly impossible to intercept and immune to boarding attacks. Veneti ships were built so much more strongly than Roman/Hellenic ships that the Veneti fleet was immune to ramming attacks as well.

The only way that the Romans under Caesar could board the Veneti was by using their very long billhooks to cut the rigging causing the sails to go limp, thus immobilising them and then relying on boarding actions. The Roman/Hellenic factions would be almost helpless against Veneti fleets.



Roman/Hellenic ships were built for the relatively calm Mediterranean, not the raging waters of the north Atlantic.

That's a typical Mediterranean merchant ship on the left though.
http://100falcons.wordpress.com/2008/10/25/roman-ships/

[vietanh797]

That's a typical Mediterranean merchant ship on the left though.
http://100falcons.wordpress.com/2008/10/25/roman-ships/

Interesting but the explanation about how Roman win the sea battle and make ramming tactic become obsolete is ridiculous.
I can tell you that a good naval commander can send the Roman's ships straight to Pluto's deep blue. It's a pity that there is no Lysander in Carthage