Minor/unplayable factions - make your bets!

[HigoChumbo]

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====== EDIT: a lot of new stuff added to the op. ======

So far... betting for the 8 major playable factions is quite straight-forward... so let's make it harder

Looking at the current bits of the map we already have... which minor factions do you think we'll be seeing in the game?


I made this map filling the OFFICIAL PROVINCES we see in the previews with the factions/tribes that i think would be more accurate from an historical point of view (with a few exceptions, like the Egyptians having territories in Asia Minor).



To see it bigger, right-click and open the image in a different tab (or save it to your pc and do whatever you want with it) or just check the amplifications in the spoilers below. (updated march 11th)





At the end of the post i have added some variations that i think will happen due to gameplay reasons. Feel free to add more, there are probably a lot more of "fantasy confederations" that could happen.



The main arguments i have taken into consideration are:

• Historical relevance (from overall importance to protagonism in battles and other events)
• Province shape
• Province capitals (who they belonged to)

I have tryed to stay roughly around the 290-250 B.C timeframe.

Also, for the most part, i have avoided including factions in zones that are not shown in previews yet (like Sarmatia, also the zone around Parthia since i don't have an updated base map)

There are probably a lot of mistakes. With the exception of Hispania, i have done the entire research in one day. So it is quite probable that some factions are out of place or timeframe, so please feel free to give me input to fix them.





Notes about the map:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

General:

Right now, there are 64 factions, well within their stated limit.

Add a few more that will probaly be included (like Sarmatians, Scythians, Lybians, Bosphorus and all the factions around Parthia, like Bactria), and i really doubt they get to 80. So, a quite accurate map is possible. Note I'm just saying it's possible, not that it will be like this. They will probably change a lot of things for gameplay and streamlining reasons.


Gaul:

• Burdigala was a Bituriges (non-aquitanian) town, but i'd be surprised if there was no aquitanian faction at all (the Vascones don't fit in Spain, since the only province in which they could be would be Aracillum and that one will go 90% sure to the Cantabrians/Astures).
• Tolosa could be either Aquitanian (the city was originally aquitanian) or Iberian, but the Region it is in strongly suggest it's well out of the aquitanian zone, so it will probably go to the gallic Volcas.
• The Massilia province could belong either to the Massilian greeks or the celtic Allogobres.

Britain:

• Moridunon was a Demetae town, but the province also comprises the zones belonging to the more relevant Silures and Ordovices, so it could really be any of the three. I'm guessing it will be the Silures. Caratacus resistance to romans etc.

Italy:

• Ariminium could be either Senones, Picentes or part of a Etruscan alliance. Maybe Boii too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...adimo_(283_BC). In the other hand, in the official Rome faction preview they say "to the North lies the Etruscan League", so I'm guessing it will belong to none of them and actually be a part of Etruria.
• I'm missing the Boii and the Senones, I think the Senones had been already defeated when the game starts, and the Boii, i dont really know where to put them. If they are in they could be at the Patavium province, but i think that Patavium itself was a Venetii city. They could also be at the Ariminium province, but since they talked of a "Etruscan league", that province will probably be a part of it.

Alps:

• Im pretty sure they will include the Helvetii in some way, mainly because of the battle of Bribacte, but i just don't know where to put them.
• Octuduron was a Veragri city, the region could be Veragri, Nantuates or Seduni. My bet is on Veragri (its their capital and they were also the main tribe in the battle of Octuduron (57 b.c.), to which Caesar dedicated an entire chapter in his De Bello Gallico. * Just noticed that, despite its a Veragri city, that province comprises most of the Helvetii homeland so probaly the Helvetii will be there.
• Koria means "tribe" in gallic and it's probably the roman fortified settlement of Curia Raetorum (the later capital of Raetia Prima). But i'm not sure about what original inhabitants fit here. Probably the Vindelici, althought if that was the case they could had gone with Augusta Vindelicorum, modern day Absburg and later capital of Raetia secunda, since it was their capital. So i honestly don't know. Raetians could fit here, or maybe it will just be a part of an Helvetian confederacy. The Vennones fit here, but i think they were just a sub-tribe of the Vindelici.
• Taurisci and Norici are two different names for the same people.

Germania: (This was probably the hardest part to do and the one with more mistakes)

• The province of Casurgis is modern day Prague, which was settled by the celtic Boii at the start of the game, who also gave the name to the region of Bohemia. But there are too many celts already and a part of the province also housed the well-known germanic Marcomani, who later (9bc) occupied the region. So i'm gonna go with them.
• The province of Tulifurdum (Hannover) is quite big and includes the zones of several tribes, like Cherusci, Sicambri, Chatti etc, so I'm going to give it to the Cheruschi since they were the main tribe in the battle of Teutoburg. Could be the Saxons too, since the shape of the province is pretty much that of the modern Westphalia, Lower Saxony and Saxony -Anhalt (a territory known as "Old Saxony", the original settlement of the Saxons, althought i don't know if these references are valid for 300bc).
• I don't know what to put in Uburzis (Würzburg), i believe the Alamanii were there but that was at a later period.

Eastern Europe andt he Balkans:

• I just took a guess with Vandals/Burgundians. Burdogis is Wroclaw, Belz is still called the same. The inhabitants of Silesia were probably the Lugii and Silingi (aparently Vandals), so I'm going to give it to them. I thought to give Burdogis to the Burgundians just because they sound similar (yeah that's how i roll), but i just don't feel like making an extra province. It's funny because it seems like the Boii were here too, that is 3 times already (Northern Italy, south-eastern germany and southern poland)... and again, they don't fit so they are out ^^.
• Maybe some of you miss the Getae, i haven't researched much, but i believe i can include them inside the Thracian kingdom.
• Deliminium was the capital of the Dalmatians. Maybe they are there instead of the southern Illyrian Ardiaean Kingdom.
• Naissos (Niš) could be also owned by the Scordici, since they subjugated the Dardanians around the time the game Starts. Also, the fact that Naissos is inside the big region of Thrace makes me thinkt hat maybe they have created an even bigger Thracian faction including Naissos.

Hellenistic World:

• I know Egypt had parts of Asia minor when the game starts, i just doubt they will include them to avoid giving egypt a too complex start.
• I don't know what will they do with Crete. Maybe it will be independent. I doubt they give it to the Ptolemies.
• I'm not sure on how to fill Northern Panonia. With Panonii... i guess.
• Yupp, sorry, Armenia was not independent when the game starts. Neither was Capadocia. Sorry. They will probably pop up after a few turns anyways.
• I have just gone the lazy way and included Athens and Sparta, i just don't feel like naming them after the unstable Aetolian and Aechean leagues.
• I think Pergamon was not independent at the start of the game, but i include it anyways since otherwise it would belong to the Ptolemies and tha would make the Seleucids look weird (i really doub theiy give the Egyptians provinces in Asia Minor, even when they should have them).
• "Cyprus came once again under Ptolemaic control in 294 BC and after that it remained under Ptolemaic rule until 58 BC, when it became a Roman province."

Africa:

I don't know what drugs did CA take when they did Africa, but i'll just let my imagination fly as much as they did.

Carthage should own Thapsus and Leptis, since they don't, i'm just gonna guess they have skipped a few years (a few like in a hundred) and gonna give them both to the Numidians, that should be divided into western and eastern Numidians, but since we know they won't do thad... let's just ignore it. Maybe they included something like the Garamantes in Leptis, who knows what they are smoking. Maybe they give it all to a Lybian factionSame goes for Mauritania, whose kingdom was pretty much the area in the province of Tingis. South of that there were other berber tribes.

Hispania:

• The only faction i have given 2 provinces are the Turdetani. Maybe they split them in 2, and add the Turduli or the Bastuli. But i really, really doubt they do that (I really, really doubt they include the Turdetanians at all, they will probably be part of a big Iberian confederacy, lets pray they are not).
• I honestly don't know what are they going to do with Ibossim (Ibiza), its not a Carthaginian starting province, and as far as i know it has always been Phoenician... will they make it an independent punic faction? or a more native-like tribe with the famed balearic slingers?

The Far East:

I'm gonna asume they have taken the independence of the satraps of Parthia and Bactria around 250 b.c to make this zone.

Merv (Alexandria/Antiochia Margiana):

Merv was renamed Antiochia Margiana, by the Seleucid ruler Antiochus Soter (281–261 BC), who rebuilt and expanded the city at [...] It was successively ruled by Bactria, Parthia and Kushans after demise of Seleucids.

Transoxiana (Sogdiana):

Meaning "the land past river Oxus" (Modern Amu Darya).
It was ruled successively by Seleucids, Greco-Bactrian Kingdom, Parthian Empire and Kushan Empire before Sassanid rule (can't find "conquest" dates).

The Problem i have with Bactria particularly is that the maps i know don't fit the history of the included cities. For instance, Maracanda (Samarkand) and Bukhara were owned first by the seleucids and then by the Greco-Bactrians, but when i give those provinces to Bactria the shape of the kingdom looks a bit weird.

Most english sources i can find name Diodotus I (the creator of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom) as Satrap of just Bactria, but the Spanish Wikipedia (int he Greco-Bactrian Kingdom entry) names him "Governor of Bactria, Sogdiana (that would be Transoxana) and Margiana (the region around Merv), so since the parthians don't own merv, and it would look like a weird appendix if i gave it to the seleucids... i'll give Merv to the Bactrians.

Amul

Is the modern Türkmenabat.

Chorasmians.

I can't clear if they were a branch of the Saka (Scythians) or not.

=========== Some CLOSE-UPs: ===========



Hispania and the Maghreb:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Gallia, Britania and Belgica:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Germania and the Alps:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Italia and Africa:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Greece, Asia Minor and the Balkans:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Egypt & Arabia:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Seleucid Spamland:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

========= Some VARIATIONS (that i personally hope don't happen but will probably happen anyways): =========

Hispania:

This would be the minimun i'd be happy with, and it's already weird enough since the iberians would be a fantasy confederation and both the Lusitanians and the Cantabrians would have a lot more territory than actually belonged to them (Gallaecia for the Cantabrians and "Algarve" for the Lusitanians)



Some names might change, like Arevaci instead of Celtiberian, or the Artabres instead of Gallaeci -if included- (both are smaller tribes of the bigger groups)

Other possibilities:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

To save one faction slot, they could remove the Celtici from Algarve and give it to the Lusitanians, while retaining the Gallaeci.



Or they could keep the Celtici but give them also the province of Gallaecia (Brigantium), since they settled there too. This would split them but that way they would not only save one faction slot, they will also give a one-province start to the -arguably playable in the future- Lusitanians. Their starting position would be more historical too.

Etruscan League:

In the official roman faction preview they say "to the North lies the Etruscan League", and since Corsica is not Carthaginian, I'm guessing northern Italy will probably look like this:




Illyria:

Liburnians, Ardiaeans, Scordisci and Dardanians sound pretty hardcore to me, so i guesst they will change a lot of things here. For starters, i think the Illyrian coast will be unified into a single Illyrian faction.

Since they included the town of Naissos, they might also give that province to the Scordisci.










========= RESOURCES =========


spartan_warrior's map (last updated march 24th - Egypt Update)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Rome(1): Total War Map

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's not really historically consistent but can give you an idea of what they might do in some areas.

Physical-Political maps

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Some very useful maps that can help you understand faction placement a lot better.

Europe:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

PSD file of my map Updated March 9th

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://mega.co.nz/#!rR0EyITA!Lo5mPj...GMWlfV6zkqjb-E

Oh, and just so you can mock me and my photoshop skills I add the failed gif i made for Thorongill's thread : (for some reason the animation only works if you open it in a different tab, at least for me)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Tryed to do a better version.

Failed. Still looks like crap.

Had to make it up a bit.

Got out of hand. I am bored and got plenty of free time.

[Breoghan]

No place left for the Astures ...but i think they are well represented by Cantabrians, and the vaccei with the AreVaci, aswell the Carpetani. The vettones were very close to the Lusitani, so I think your map is a very good choice.

Let`s hope the traditional lazyness of CA don`t make identical the weaponry an gear of the indoeuropean peoples and the iberic ones ...

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Let`s hope the traditional lazyness of CA don`t make identical the weaponry an gear of the indoeuropean peoples and the iberic ones ...

its not lazy, its called better use of time! and money!

[HigoChumbo]

its not lazy, its called better use of time! and money!

"Better" is not the term i would use.

[yuezhi]

"Better" is not the term i would use.

i believe that's called the "Big-companies-like-EA treatment" my friend

Kingdom of Kartli ftw! after all the evidence presented there's no way in hades CA can simply ignore the georgian community here.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

"Better" is not the term i would use.

But that is what CA is forced to do, somthing I has nothing agaisnt, becouse hell I cant see the different.

[Sharpe]

I think it will be much the same to Shogun 2, minor factions will occupy every region not owned by a Major faction. Some may even be quite large, like the Mughals in Empire.

I would like to see Pergamon, Pontus, Saka, maybe some nomadic Gauls - especially Galatia.

[Sherm]

There also the possibility that like in Empire: Total War with the colonies, they give some kind of faction as vassal of Carthage, to rapresent the influence to the punics in the south of the peninsula. I hope not, but could be a possibility.

[The Great Montrose]

Caledonians!!!

[Arcani 4 Ever]

Talking about unplayable smaller factions makes me think of something.

How moddable will the startpos file will be at the game release?

[Sherm]

I'm very curious to know the status of Thapsus and Leptis at start, now that are not owned by Carthage. In theory that area should be more controlled by Punics than Mauritania.

[DaciaJC]

Talking about unplayable smaller factions makes me think of something.

How moddable will the startpos file will be at the game release?

My guess is, not very. They (CA) have said that they won't start discussing modding until production on R2 has finished, essentially.

[HigoChumbo]

Talking about unplayable smaller factions makes me think of something.

Now that you say it... i assumed that since they have no faction number limit anymore they could make as many as they wanted, but didn't take into account that Rome's map will probably be a lot larger (size and province-wise) than Shogun's.

I wonder if they will optimize it so the number of factions is not a hinderance to fast turn times or if they will just reduce the ammount of factions by making the dreaded fantasy confederations (iberians, germans, gauls, etc).

So far, the fact that the briton and gallic playable factions are named by tribes (Iceni and Arveni) makes me keep the hopes high.

That map was made by myself, not super_newbie_pro.

Sorry! fixed

Do you honestly expect or even want CA to spend 9 out of a total number of less then 100 factions to be postioned in Iberia?

Why do you say there will be less than 100 factions? Give me a source.

And anyways, if you have read my entire post, you can see I said that (i fear) they might include all the iberian factions into one big confederacy, and make the Lusitanians bigger than they are by removing the Celtici. Hell.. they might even give Brigantium to the Cantabrians.

Btw, i based my predictions more on official CA sources than on actual historical maps, the main 2 factors being the province shape (for instance, CA's Baetica covers almost the exact realm of the Turdetanians) and the cities they have chosen (Arse was an edetani city, later Saguntum, Aracillum was a Cantabrian town and Numantia was an Arevaci (Celtiberian) city).

I can live with some nationalistic feelings in these kind of ideas

Mate, read my posts... trust me you can accuse me of everything before calling me a nationalist (which i hardly am...). You have seen a flag of Spain in my avatar and you have asumed i'm the usual twcenter teenager hoolingan trying to convince everybody that his country is the best in the world (which it hardly is).

You are failing to see the details, and the details are everything. For starters, my profile picture is an actual joke on my own country, and a reference to some other guy's avatar (can't remember who right now):




Not to mention i'm actually a spanish republican so that's not even the flag that is supposed to represent me...

So please, refrain from making assumptions about me by just taking a quick overlook at my posts. If i talk mainly about Spain it is because its the part i know better since it's my own culture, i could sit here talking about the Thracians for pages and pages and be wrong in 3 of every 4 words i wrote, so i just don't do it.

I hope nobody seriously thinks that this would be an idea beneficial to the overall game?

Why wouldn't a more correct depiction of the historical situation be beneficial? I can't think of any inconveniences for gameplay save turn-time, and they have already done something like this before (Empire and Shogun 2 both had plenty of tiny unplayable minor factions, so why not Rome2?).

I say 3 factions in Iberia: lusitanians, celtiberians and iberians. With an additional presence of Carthaginians in the south and at the west coast perhaps the city of Sargentum in the possesion of the Massalia faction.

That's plenty

And why would they include Aracilum, a cantabrian city, then? Not to mention the Cantabrian wars is one of the main events in roman Hispania.

I expect no less than 4-5 tribes (and that would already be a crime). Lusitanians, Celtiberians/Arevaci, Iberians and Cantabrians would be my minimum guess, and not including the Turdetanians would be a very bad choice in my opinion. That way you would have all the major cultural groups depicted (iberians, "late-tartessians", celts, celtiberians and aquitanians, althought the cantabrians were not aquitanian but celt, but would make do).

Btw, i fear your choices are heavily based on a more pop-culture knowledge. Those tribes you mention are famous because of military deeds (Viriathus, Numantia and their part in Hannibal's army), but you could easily say that the Turdetanians (former Tartessians) were more cultured, rich and meaningful than the rest of the hispanic tribes put together (maybe an overstatement, but you get the point). They are not so "flashy" because, in words of Livy, they were "the least warlike of all the Hispanic tribes", and they were asimilated easily by both Carthaginians and Romans (Turdetania later became the most important Roman province in Hispania, and even when the Arabs came, they settled their power mainly around Seville (roman Italica) and Cordoba (Corduba/Kartuba) and the Guadalquivir river lower basin (Betis river, for the romans, hence the name Baetica), since it was the richest and most cultured/advanced region in Spain.

And before you accuse me again, i have nothing to do with the Turdetanians, my hometown, Granada (Iliberri/Iliberis in this time, or Florentia iliberitana for the romans) would be int area of influence of the Bastetani, which were not of Tartessian heritage, and had been already under Carthaginian rule for several centuries before the romans came.

[D E C]

Since there will be no rebels I wonder what exactly will fill the area between Dacia, Magna Germania and Sarmatia (the territory of modern day Belarus, for example). Proto-slavs? Baltic peoples?

[Sherm]

Since there will be no rebels I wonder what exactly will fill the area between Dacia, Magna Germania and Sarmatia (the territory of modern day Belarus, for example). Proto-slavs? Baltic peoples?

maybe is simply cutted from the map.

[spartan_warrior]

Btw, credits for super_newbie_pro for his great preview map

That map was made by myself, not super_newbie_pro.

[Sherm]

That map was made by myself, not super_newbie_pro.

True

[Asgaroth]

That map was made by myself, not super_newbie_pro.

Beautiful map !

[Grimbold]

Any faction that isn't a major one . Taking Gaul for example, besides the Avernii, you'll have a whole of tribes laying around.

Considering Rome doesn't control all of Italy, we might see the Boii there.

You get the picture.

Personally, if an Iberian faction is excluded, i'd like to see the Lusitanians and a whole big bunch of Greek City States.

[Sherm]

I'm also curious to know if Massilia will be controlled by the greek colony or by a gallic tribe