Trolls...

[raspoutin667]

Hi everyone,

I've search the forum for some tips about trolls usage and the only thing I can find is anti-troll guides and posts.

I'm not used to evil factions, and after reading some post I thought that for OoG and OoMM trolls is, lets say the great equallizer. But no...

I'm not saying they are crappy unit, but aren't as usefull as it seams.

In some custom battles, i've test snow trolls against iron guardians (because they are not AP, as far as I know from their description) and every time it's a disaster.

After the charge (in which they kill at most 6... guards) everything is over. You cannot withdraw them from combat. Every time the battle is lost with around 1/4 of iron guards remaining and my little beasties lying dead....

I believe I cannot fully utilize their abilities. After engagement in combat there is no withdrawal. Even if you press the withdraw button, half are running and the other still fighting (well if half of them withdraw i'm just thankful).

And their charge is a joke sometimes.
I cannot believe that a unit that can be produced every 25 turns (which means it cannot be retrained so easily), is so dysfunctional.

Well... Any advice about this?

[Bowmaster]

Welcome to the forum, @raspoutin667(gosh, there comes so many new dudes to the forum these days)!!!

Iron Guards are one of the few units in the game who can defeat trolls with ease. You didn't think about testing it with other units?

I have no experience using trolls, only a little bit of fighting them, but I guess I might be able to say a few things.

1. If you don't want your trolls to die, always watch out for missile units, be it javelins, bows, crossbows, ballista's, catapults or trebuchets. Your trolls have very little armor, and so are vulnerable to missiles. Ballistas especially.

2. Do. Not. Waste. Them. Don't send them against crappy Miners or Breeland Militia, they'll be wasted like that. But don't send them against units with shieldwall or very good armor either. Try fighting mid- or high tier light infantry/archers with them.

3. I have really no experience about how they do in sieges, but I guess they'd best be used to storm the gates (The Great Gates of Minas Tirith).

Remember that I don't have experience with trolls. What I say may not be right.

[ThaDoews]

Use them as stormtroopers. Also when sieging a city, break dawn the walls or gate and send them in! They will make som space for ya! They are very usefull. 2-3 units of trolls can nearly destroy a full stack!

In open combat, send them first and other units after them. As they throw around your enemies, your other troops will kill them

[DrDragun]

With trolls you need to have a "feel" for how much damage they have taken in a fight and try to keep them alive. They can be used for shock troops or anti-archer but only for short periods. If you NEED to rush a gate they can do it, but afterwards they will be damaged and should be given easier duty for the rest of the fight. They are better for breaking morale along the enemy flanks, and can safely fight this way for a long time. If you MUST use them in the center or against an archer cluster, make sure that they are supported quickly or else run your trolls back to safety after a short time.

- Trolls can defend wall-tops and are are overpowered at doing so.
- Troll are excellent at slaying high-value targets like infantry generals or special plot heroes.
- They can be used as quick shock troops don't dont LEAVE them surrounded by infantry for a long time as mentioned above
- In general, try to keep them fighting 1 enemy unit at a time and not get surrounded
- They can be used to break 1-2 enemy archer units, but don't send them against a cluster of high level archers or they will get shredded as Bowmaster said. They have very poor archer defense but very good melee defense.
- They run faster than infantry so they can catch archers that are spread out and skirmishing your forces

SIDE NOTE: After Turn 42 with troll-using factions, always complete Council Missions with the reward "You will receive some of the best units available" because you will probably be getting 3 trolls.

[Teutonic Warlord]

Treat trolls like cavalry or soldiers with 2-hand weapons. Have them attack the enemy in the flank or rear (your trolls move as quickly as cavalry and faster than some of them) while your orcs/snaga attack the enemy head-on. After the charge, pull them away and charge again, or send them running through the enemy troops to send them flying. Troops flying, falling, or trying to get back up can't fight back against yours.

So basically, they are your hammer while orcs/goblins/snaga are the anvil. Let wargs handle archers. Also, if enemy cavalry charge into any of your infantry, send trolls and wargs in behind them to wipe out the enemy cavalry.

[Wizad]

I disagree with using them as cavalry or stormtroopers. They simply lack the numbers to make the first contact a shock and shortly after into a mass rout. Orcs have units with a lot of soldiers of low quality. In a line vs line battle, Orcs will almost certainly lose because they can't use their numbers advantage. Shortly after the line vs line battle starts like any other normal battle, send in the the trolls at a few concentrated spots to break the enemy lines from the front. The trolls will push enemy units away and create a gap. That way your units can fill that gap, and instead of a line vs line battle, you will be able to surround a few isolated enemy troops. Your tolls don't need to be fighting the whole time, their damage isn't that spectacular.

[DrDragun]

I disagree with using them as cavalry or stormtroopers. They simply lack the numbers to make the first contact a shock and shortly after into a mass rout. Orcs have units with a lot of soldiers of low quality. In a line vs line battle, Orcs will almost certainly lose because they can't use their numbers advantage. Shortly after the line vs line battle starts like any other normal battle, send in the the trolls at a few concentrated spots to break the enemy lines from the front. The trolls will push enemy units away and create a gap. That way your units can fill that gap, and instead of a line vs line battle, you will be able to surround a few isolated enemy troops. Your tolls don't need to be fighting the whole time, their damage isn't that spectacular.

I agree but they also have the 'scare' special property and they deny the enemy kills (which seems to lower morale faster... I'm not sure how morale works but it seems that even when a unit is getting killed quickly they can hold onto their morale longer if they are producing their own kills). Anyway, I agree that their damage is overrated but they still have a good shock effect. And I definitely like your maneuver of breaking holes in the line; I'll try doing that more.

[raspoutin667]

Thank you guys for your replies.

I'll test it through custom battles.

What bothers me is that I have to wait long for any possible retrain, because they need 25 turns to be available.

Also their charge is nothing special. You may see the enemy flying, but nothing close even to light cavalry charges. I believe bersergers charge maybe more destructive.

Anyway...

Something else. Some times when i charge from the rear even in a single unit one of my trolls is caught in action and i cannot make it retriet with no way.

Is that something to do with the mod or it is a bug?

Many charges costs me one or two trolls, because of this.

[RuleBritannia]

Trolls are extremely weak against pike units, ballistae/catapults, crossbows, flanking cavalry, and some hero/special units (Balrog, Sauron, Oliphaunts, etc.)

I too have seen Trolls pretty much get wiped out against Iron Guard, but trust me, use Trolls against pretty much any other unit and they will kill tons of them. However, Trolls aren't meant to be one-unit armies. They can get overwhelmed because of how slow and easy to hit they are, so if 12 Trolls lose to 800 soldiers, don't be surprised. However, they will take hundreds of soldiers down with them.

[LuckyPistol]

For Orcs of Gundabad and Orcs of the Misty Mountains

I have to go with Wizad. I play evil factions a lot and I used to think trolls were supposed to be used as shock troops like Beserkers or Cavalry. But when playing as OoG and OotMM Trolls are sooooo much more useful when used to create gaps during line vs line battles. With the northern Orc factions, you need that swarm tactic to take out dwarves and elves and other high tier units, and trolls can pave the way. They also make great general killers as long as you have two units vs one general unit, because killing High Elven bodyguards with one unit of ANYTHING is pretty much impossible The cave trolls are all the OotMM get, but they're better than the Mountain Trolls. Don't bother recruiting Mountain Trolls as Gundabad, as the difference in unit performance for Snow trolls GREATLY exceeds the higher cost, which isn't even that much higher

Don't go all out with trolls either. They cost a lot and can be a huge burden on your economy. only recruit them when you have a "free upkeep" unit slot or when you plan to attack.

For Mordor

By the time you get Olog Hai you should already have Minas Tirith or at least Cair Andros and Osgiliath. Though the Olog Hai need to be concentrated in Dol Guldur, they are EXCELLENT buffers against the superior Silvan troops they're not as vital to the army as with the other two factions, to me they're kind of a "just in case" unit when fighting against human factions.

But for all of the Orc factions don't send ANY trolls into dwarvern units by themselves, the dwarves will absolutely devastate them, even Olog and Snow Trolls XP

I love trolls, and I hate to see any of them die. Never ever ever ever ever ever use Auto Resolve if you have trolls in your army, they will be the first to go!

[Dunadd]

Trolls are about the toughest and most deadly units in the game. They are, if anything, too overpowered.

They have armour ratings of 6 for mountain trolls, 8 for snow trolls cave trolls and 9 for Olog-hai.
So snow trolls have as good an armour rating as most heavy armoured infantry
They have between 5 and 6 hit points each - which means it takes 5 or 6 attacks which would kill a normal soldier to kill one of them.
They have an attack rating of 30 in combat (35 for snow trolls)- higher than any other unit in the game except maybe mumakil.
Their attack is an area attack (it hits everyone in an area each time they strike, not just one enemy)
They have armour piercing
Their defence rating in melee is their armour rating of between 23 and 27, giving them all 30 or higher defence rating in combat (snow trolls have 22 plus 8 armour for a total of 30)

If you can't win a battle using trolls then either not fighting the battle the right way, or else the rest of your army is no good.

Their only real weaknesses are to ballistas or very high damage archers/ javelinmen, or to cavalry charging them from both sides at once.

So i'd guess the problem is the rest of your army being too weak - a lot of the goblin units of Gundabad and Orcs of the Misty Mountains are too weak - you can change them by editing the export_descr_unit file in the mods/Third_Age_3/data folder

[LuckyPistol]

Trolls are about the toughest and most deadly units in the game. They are, if anything, too overpowered.

They have armour ratings of 6 for mountain trolls, 8 for snow trolls cave trolls and 9 for Olog-hai.
So snow trolls have as good an armour rating as most heavy armoured infantry
They have between 5 and 6 hit points each - which means it takes 5 or 6 attacks which would kill a normal soldier to kill one of them.
They have an attack rating of 30 in combat (35 for snow trolls)- higher than any other unit in the game except maybe mumakil.
Their attack is an area attack (it hits everyone in an area each time they strike, not just one enemy)
They have armour piercing
Their defence rating in melee is their armour rating of between 23 and 27, giving them all 30 or higher defence rating in combat (snow trolls have 22 plus 8 armour for a total of 30)

If you can't win a battle using trolls then either not fighting the battle the right way, or else the rest of your army is no good.

Their only real weaknesses are to ballistas or very high damage archers/ javelinmen, or to cavalry charging them from both sides at once.

So i'd guess the problem is the rest of your army being too weak - a lot of the goblin units of Gundabad and Orcs of the Misty Mountains are too weak - you can change them by editing the export_descr_unit file in the mods/Third_Age_3/data folder

While this way of thinking is true for Olog Hai, the northern Orc factions really depend on trolls and can't become too confident because they have a unit or two in their army. Trolls are not overpowered, by the time an orc faction gets trolls, the other factions should get a good "counter" unit (Javelins, high damage arrows, ballistas, etc.). Now seeing 5 units in one army would make anyone jump out of their skin, but only Mordor ever produces Olog Hai off the ol' conveyor belt. I think this thread should focus more on OoG and OotMM because no one should be having a problem with Mordor's trolls

Oh and I'm pretty sure Ents > Olog Hai

[Gabrius]

Trolls can sometimes charge *through* the enemies they are currently fighting if you tell them to charge at another unit farther away from their current battle. Just an interesting strategy I've noticed.

[RuleBritannia]

It's not overpowered, it's pretty realistic. Remember when Boromir tried to slash a Troll with all his might and his sword just bounced off of it? I agree, they should have fewer hitpoints (normal Trolls, Olog-Hai are just fine I think) because of how slow they are and how undefended their stomachs are, but they are quite powerful and rightfully slow.

Ents > Trolls, but Ents and Olog-Hai have pretty even fights, I've seen.

[Death_Sheep]

I use them as Line Breakers.

If the enemy is holding the line at the gate? I pull back my troops, and send in the trolls to break the line. Usually backed by a nice two handed troop.

The trick is to use them effectively. I like to keep them as a reserve, as it's far easier to put them into combat than to take them out of combat compared to other units.

In a pinch, I end up even using the catapault trolls to backup my Olog Hai. When it comes down to it, I choose the most visually appeal/ effective strategy.

[Lazy]

While defending a bridge or the entrance to a settlement they are the best!
What I do:
2 unit of the cheapest trolls available and 1 Olog-Hai ( if playing Mordor ).

When the enemie rushes through the gate I send the cheap troll units into the masses of enemies.
They will upgrade really fast and kill tons of enemies.
As this area is overcrowded they hit masses of enemies with every attack.
I wait for them to die and send the Olog-Hai afterwards.

After their first battle the Olog-Hai will have at least one golden chevron what will make them nearly impossible to kill in the next siege.

When you look at the summary you will be suprised how many soldiers got killed by the trolls and how few of your own soldiers got killed.
The "problem" is you must have "cheap" trolls in the hinterlands to replenish the dead ones...

[LuckyPistol]

I don't think any trolls could be considered cheap except the troll catapult ones :/ Mountain Trolls are still something to be feared even if they are the least powerful (besides catapult) and should never be thrown away like that :/ Losing a bunch of cheap orc units is better than losing troll units in my opinion.

For further update on the topic of trolls for @raspoutin667:

Olog Hai > Snow Troll > Cave Troll > Mountain Troll

Since Cave Trolls are the only troll you get for OotMM, never consider them fodder or expendable. You will need trolls for the final push against the High Elves later in the game.

Mountain Trolls you should never even recruit unless you need some troll units ASAP and their the only ones available, as Mordor and OoG can get the next level of troll with the next building. If you do have a Mountain Troll, be careful, as they actually die fairly quick, so send them as support for your front line and not as a charging unit or to chase down archers

Snow Trolls: These are what will keep your Gundabad armies together and help your terrible infantry swarm and surround the enemy. As with all Trolls, never send against another elite unit 1 vs 1. Snow Trolls are capable of taking out the highest teir units (with at least one fodder unit to back up) with ease, and will help you wipe the floor with Eriador. The High Elves and Dwarves will need probably 2-4 Snow Troll Units in your army if you plan to seige a big city, and by the time you go all out against them you will have the cash to sustain them. Never keep them in cities unless there is an attack coming, though they amazing at defeding walls. Snow Trolls are probably the least likely unit to appear during a campaing, as Gundabad AI goes for the Mountain Trolls because it gets them sooner, but they are an amazingly versatile unit, and I don't know about the stats but to me it feels like they move faster than other trolls.

Olog Hai: If the Mumakil and Ents were not in this game, then the title of most terrifying unit goes to the Mordor Elite. By the time you get them, you won't really have much need of them, but they can seriously do some major damage. Good defense and attack stats, these are the only trolls I would recommend charging into enemy flanks. They make short work out of any non-dwarven/eldar unit and only need fodder to back them up for the highest of tiers (Swan Knights, Fountain Guard). But still, you should always conserve with them until at least turn 100 or whenever you have conquered Gondor. Then you can spam troll stacks against everyone else. The Silvan Elf campaign is a bit trickier. Since Dol Guldur is the only place you can recruit them up there, you need to keep at least 2-3 units alive until you conquer either Lothlorien in the West or Thranduil's Halls up north (I reccomend taking out the two Lothlorien settlements as you have the OotMM and Isengard at your flank rather than Dwarves and Dale if you conquered up north).

And now Troll Catapults. I'm pretty sure a while ago, a thread found out that the trolls manning catapults had worse stats than mountain trolls, so don't be eager to use them in a melee brawl. Keep them at the catapult until they run out of ammo, and only use them if the battle looks like it might turn the other way. Again, if you have to, use them as support, preferrably with a unit that is already flanking the enemy

What not to do with trolls in general:
1. Send them against previously unengaged dwarven or eldar units
2. send them head on against ballista/catapult/mid-high tier archers
3. leave them prolonged in battle
4. keep them lying around in cities
5. disband them

Hope this helps!

[Aldor]

As with most expensive units, I think, the best way is to use trolls with lots of support.

It was said earlier to keep them as a reserve.

I would engage my orc infantry and start to tire out and disrupt the enemy formation. After the battle has started for some time, send in the trolls through your units. They should rarely lose numbers as they will fight 1v1 and won't get surrounded.

They can indeed chain charge through units and this will keep them relatively safe as they throw units back while moving. (Not effective to kill enemy troops though.) Also good to get them out of a fishy encounter with axe wielding psycho's, better known as Dwarves.

Don't waste their HP by getting fire by archers. They'll die incredibly fast in melee afterwards. Rather throw them in, than sustain fire.
(The bulk of their defense comes from def skill, not armour.)

Shield wall is awesome versus trolls. They are surrounded fast (and most Dwarves have armour piercing).
Use backup units and surround/swarm that cube first!

Retreat when heavily blooded and if the battle is lost, get them out safe. Their HPs are reset for each battle.

They cause fear in infantry and can rout isolated, swarmed units while some of your units hold off reinforcements.

I made a replay for you (an average battle I quickly made, which already shows how useful they can be against a more expensive and high tier army.):

1 troll
2 snaga skirmishers
3 goblin basic swordsmen

versus

2 dragonslayers
2 iron guard
2 dwarven warriors

[Dude with the Food]

Use them in all siege battles. Whether defending/taking gates like previously mentioned or taking/defending walls, they are amazing at it. But always use some orce unit to carry siege equipment and send the trolls in second. Then watch the carnage.

[Jmonstra]

I don't know of too many units in the Mordor/OoMM/Gundabad roster that can go toe to toe with a unit of Iron Guard and reduce them to 6. Now just imagine if you had used them to flank, or charge that unit from behind.