Germany rejects arrangement with Switzerland on tax-evaders definitevely

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

From Deutsche Welle

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Der Bundesrat hat auch in der zweiten Runde das Steuerabkommen mit der Schweiz abgelehnt. Damit ist es endgültig vom Tisch.
Die Länderkammer lehnte den Gesetzentwurf der Bundesregierung ab, nachdem ein letzter Einigungsversuch im gemeinsamen Vermittlungsausschuss mit dem Bundestag gescheitert war. Rot-Grün wollte die Bundesregierung zu neuen Verhandlungen mit der Schweiz auffordern. Das hatte die Schweizer Regierung in Bern aber mehrfach zurückgewiesen.
Ziel des Abkommens war es, in der Schweiz angelegtes Vermögen wie in Deutschland zu besteuern. Außerdem sollten Altvermögen pauschal mit 21 bis 41 Prozent nachversteuert werden. Die Steuerhinterzieher sollten gegenüber den Behörden anonym bleiben. Während die Schweiz das Abkommen ratifiziert hatte, stellte sich in Deutschland der Bundesrat quer, in dem CDU/CSU und FDP keine Mehrheit haben.


SPD und Grüne kritisierten, mit dem Abkommen würden deutsche Steuersünder gegenüber ehrlichen Steuerzahlern besser gestellt. Außerdem sahen sie zu viele Schlupflöcher für Steuerhinterzieher. Die von ihnen geführten Landesregierungen setzen stattdessen weiter auf die Steuerfahndung und wollen auch künftig Daten ankaufen, die aus Schweizer Banken entwendet werden. Zudem will die SPD erreichen, dass Banken, diem ihre Kunden bei der Steuerhinterziehung unterstützen, die Lizenz entzogen wird.
gmf/hf (afp, dapd, rtr)

So, the German Federal Council has rejected for the second time and thus definitively the arrangement with the Swiss government concerning tax-evaders/avoiders, according to which German-owned assets in Switzerland would start being taxed at the same rate as in Germany as well as with a lump sum tax between 21-41% for already existing ones in exchange for anonymity of the account-holders. Switzerland has rejected proposals for further negotiations.

The rationale for this decision was that the SDP and the Greens thought that this arrangement would favour tax-avoiders over honest tax-payers in Germany and because they want to investigate the collusion of banks in the scheme of moving assets abroad.

Thoughts? I think it was completely misjudged and the loss of a great opportunity.

[Raubritter]

Tax is theft.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

Something more to the point of this thread?

[Raubritter]

Its the point, the most basic point in this hole debate.

Taxation is just robbery and honest taxpayers are stockholm syndrom sick bloodbags for the psychophat construct government. I have no interest in keeping up wealth in western nations to feed their governments. German citizens should move their capital out of there as soon as possible.

[Basil II the B.S]

Its the point, the most basic point in this hole debate.

Taxation is just robbery and honest taxpayers are stockholm syndrom sick bloodbags for the psychophat construct government. I have no interest in keeping up wealth in western nations to feed their governments. German citizens should move their capital out of there as soon as possible.

German citizens get a of services from the governnment and the quality is good. No point in moving capitals to your non-existent paradise.

On topic: I'm unsure about this. Seems to me that the SPD and Greens are pretending a bit too much. The agreement isn't bad on paper.

[Raubritter]

German citizens get a of services from the governnment and the quality is good. No point in moving capitals to your non-existent paradise.

Services they are forced to accept, they are forced to pay for, they reduce their own choice on the market.

You are promoting government run services, promoting taxation, promoting socialism.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Services they are forced to accept, they are forced to pay for, they reduce their own choice on the market.

Man, you are as fake as a 3 dollar bill. You are promoting government run services, promoting taxation, promoting socialism. Your a phony... or you are to one who wanna holds the gun to the producers head.

I like living in a state where people are forced to accept sewer systems and roads.

[Basil II the B.S]

Services they are forced to accept, they are forced to pay for, they reduce their own choice on the market.

None of them seems to care a tiny bit nor seems to be interested in smashing down everything for an irrational and insane hate towards the government in the name of a utopia that, so far, has never been realized.

You are promoting government run services, promoting taxation, promoting socialism.

Adam Smith was ok with government run services. Now, it's either Adam Smith was a socialist or you are on with your usual tantrum of nonsense.

[Roma_Victrix]

Services they are forced to accept, they are forced to pay for, they reduce their own choice on the market.

Forced to by the democratic majority, you mean? If Germans wanted ultra-libertarian policies (i.e. the government basically has no role in the economy, doesn't build infrastructure, everything is managed from the private sector, etc.) then surely they would have voted ultra-libertarian politicians into public office. Right?

Even if the private sector could handle the same services, I think most Germans find present government services useful. Like building roads and maintaining fire departments. Those are the sort of things taxes pay for and you'd still be paying for them if private companies offered all of these traditionally government-handled public services. The difference is you wouldn't be coughing up money in a tax return, you'd be paying a guy at a toll booth working for Private Company X, Y, or Z which uses that money to maintain and operate the roads.

But I digress from the OP...

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

On topic: I'm unsure about this. Seems to me that the SPD and Greens are pretending a bit too much. The agreement isn't bad on paper.

I know, the agreement is great on paper. I mean why do you care about who tax-evaded as long as you get the opportunity to tax them from now on and compensate for tax-evading in the first place. I can only wish that Greece could pull out some sort of similar arrangement with the Swiss. I am beginning to suspect that maybe those who torpedoed the ratification may have some actual interest in concentrated wealth in Switzerland not being tapped or they hope this thing will somehow turn on Merkel. I am curious as to what the German members here make of this decision.

[priam11]

Taxation is just robbery and honest taxpayers are stockholm syndrom sick bloodbags for the psychophat construct government.

What about dishonest taxpayers? Where do they fall into this?

I have no interest in keeping up wealth in western nations to feed their governments.

Time to get a plane ticket to the East. Oh wait, they tax there too. Damn it!

German citizens should move their capital out of there as soon as possible.

The Swiss might have an issue with that gem. Could be war. Who would pay for it though? The taxpayer! Curses, foiled again.


OP. Is this really a big enough issue in Germany? Since I am very ignorant of the tax laws in both countries I am curious.

[athanaric]

Its the point, the most basic point in this hole debate.

Taxation is just robbery and honest taxpayers are stockholm syndrom sick bloodbags for the psychophat construct government. I have no interest in keeping up wealth in western nations to feed their governments. German citizens should move their capital out of there as soon as possible.

That's hyperbolic and frankly quite ridiculous. "No taxation without representation" would be a far more reasonable standpoint, i.e. the state should be acting in the interest of its citizens in exchange for taxes. There is a crapton of reasons for taxes in any given state.

[Raubritter]

There is a crapton of reasons for taxes in any given state.

Its the same cult like stuff i hear all the time. Often i feel myself like someone in a mosque tries to argue with muslims why stone sb. to death is wrong and that adultery is a voluntary decision.

Excuse me, how would people "voluntarily" set up and maintain a sewer system or other massive infrastructure projects that literally save lives and allow for our level of civilisation to exist?

Comming together and choose a corp. they hire to build a well and sewer system. Or just build individualy. Is this so hard to get? What are you doing if you wanna move from your flat in a house? Wait untill the government allot you one? God these german babies will never grow up just aging,...

[removeduser_487563287433]

Comming together and choose a corp. they hire to build a well and sewer system. Or just build individualy. Is this so hard to get? What are you doing if you wanna move from your flat in a house? Wait untill the government allot you one? God these german babies will never grow up just aging,...

Build... a sewer system... individually...

Such retarded adolescent nihilism.

[Knight of Heaven]

Its the point, the most basic point in this hole debate.

Taxation is just robbery and honest taxpayers are stockholm syndrom sick bloodbags for the psychophat construct government. I have no interest in keeping up wealth in western nations to feed their governments. German citizens should move their capital out of there as soon as possible.

You have no interest because you might be rich enough. No?
Alot of people, actualy most of it has their quality of lives improved due to the social state, and services a human society provide. Public transports amoung a trilion other things.
If you want you can live in a cave on a desert island of your own and be there. I wonder how long you would last.

No one reads books anymore and just parroting stupid communist BS heard on TV is just enough to be part of a "political discussion" these days. People just parrot each other and bring up the same nonsense facism worshiping rhetoric preached by government and media

Ah so people who read books dont parrot them anyway? cool story. Its not only about reading books but its knowing what make of them too, in the proper contest.
And acording to reality.

Attitudes ain't the point, if i would be disabled that doesn't give me the right demand things from others and send people to steal these things in my mandate. Its just a try to corrupt people that they would give their aggrement that others get threatend and robbed in their name, because its so lot easier just giving approval than doing something by themself. If you wouldn't have to carry that high tax burden, ferrets said something 30% but in reality its more about 70%+, you would have enough money left to decide who you wanna help.

Again you completely miss the point, of what you speak would be nothing but charity, and charity doesnt solve the issue. You see its not about giving disadled people help, is about giving them conditions for them to be part of a society and not be co-dependents, for them to be them selfs without restrictions like anyother. A thing you could never do, by just trowing them some money.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Reducto ad Hitlerum won't work on me. In the UK developing the sewers saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

[Raubritter]

Reducto ad Hitlerum won't work on me. In the UK developing the sewers saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

This isn't about the invention of sewers, this is about makeing decisions voluntarly or by force. Ofcourse you people won't get that idea...

[removeduser_487563287433]

This isn't about the invention of sewers, this is about makeing decisions voluntarly or by force. Ofcourse you people won't get that idea...

Excuse me, how would people "voluntarily" set up and maintain a sewer system or other massive infrastructure projects that literally save lives and allow for our level of civilisation to exist? At no point in history have these sort of things been outside the responsibility or influence of the state, and at no point in history have there never been some form of taxation to fund these needs.

Your views aren't political. Politics is about the art of the possible. You are just fantasising worthlessly.

[Dr. Croccer]

It's always funny to watch some people look at the last 10.000 years of human history and then start shouting: ''NOOO! EVERYTHING IS WROOONG! STOP ENJOYING YOUR LIVES, IT'S ALL SLAVERY AND PAIN.''

I've still yet to see an Anarchist inform me on how the human race has been collectively misguided since the inception of human history.

Its the same cult like stuff i hear all the time. Often i feel myself like someone in a mosque tries to argue with muslims why stone sb. to death is wrong and that adultery is a voluntary decision

This is especially hilarious coming from someone whose ideology was invented by a variety of philosophers who basically had to invoke God to lend weight to their claims several centuries ago.

[eisenkopf]

(...)
Thoughts? I think it was completely misjudged and the loss of a great opportunity.

The numbers on potential revenue are pure estimates by those who favor the deal, and are thus certainly an upper boundary. Considering that we do not know how much "black money" is with Swiss banks, the actual numbers might turn out much lower. Of course, the German tax collectors are completely at the mercy of the Swiss banks.

This is the first main criticism: Tax evaders remain anonymous, and there is no measure foreseen to control the actions of the Swiss banks.

The second main criticism is justice: With this deal, tax evasion would have been very profitable, because of reduced tax rates for the 10 year period, and none before. And it would remain profitable, because the money would remain undeclared and thus would not appear on any regular tax declaration.

It's hard to NOT see the problems with the deal, and I am strongly opposed to it. Nevertheless, I am sure it would have passed if we wouldn't have federal elections next year, and tax evasion is a nice issue left-of-center parties can exploit.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...4#post12293544

Well, so far it seems that the various data already purchased yielded some revenue. Plus, there is the scare-factor, that can make the tax evaders either shift money (which is not as easy as it sounds, or the Swiss banks' accounts would be empty by now), or go legitimate by making amended returns. Of which there seem to be more than a few recently.

There is no guarantee that the little bits will make one big fat juicy cake.

As I said before, it is not that easy to transfer the money, because we are talking about individual wealth, and not some international investment fund. The wealth may be in such a fund, but it is accounted for in a bank (usually). The transnational investment fund may shift money easily between tax heavens, the wealthy tax evader not.


Even realpolitik needs to be based on some legitimate claims, otherwise it will fail in the long run. If you undermine the legitimacy of the German taxation system with such deals, the repurcussions can be much more severe. If I would pay income taxes in Germany, I'd already be pissed off that I pay more on my labour-based income, than some other guy on his capital gains. Now reward tax evasion, and you'll see me trying to evade taxes as well. Get it? Btw, the realpolitik is that taxes in Germany are already comparatively low.

I guess you'd never have voted for them to begin with. Btw, we don't have socialists, we have social democrats. And no, I voted for neither. Based on them blocking this deal, I might consider doing so

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post12293671


'nuff said.