Rules Discussion Thread

[Stildawn]

Hi Everybody!

Below you'll find two sets of draft rules, one is super duper simple, the other more akin to what we are used to.

Please take the time to browse both sets and then post your preference and any ideas, additions, subtractions, amendments etc that you feel.

Super Duper Simple to the point of maybe being lame :)

Income Rules:

Simple rank based money system... Starting Amount/Promotions The King - 200 Florins The Archbishop - 150 Florins The Prince - 150 Florins The Dukes -100 Florins The Earls - 80 Florins The Barons - 60 Florins Bishops - 60 Florins The Knights - 40 Florins Priests - 35 florins Freemen/Monks - 25 Florins Weekly Income The King - 70 Florins The Archbishop - 60 Florins The Prince - 60 Florins The Dukes - 50 Florins The Earls - 30 Florins The Barons - 20 Florins Bishops - 20 Florins The Knights - 15 Florins Priests - 10 Florins Freemen/Monks - 5 Florins Income is paid out weekly (in game yearly) on/near friday.

Characters:

Each play is allowed to RP one main character, any aux characters are allowed but are not protected by the rules however Mods will use their common sense in any silly game ruining aux play. Players will create a "vault" thread (may be renamed later) which will serve as a character registration thread as well as keep track of their money, rank, items etc. Professions While a large degree of creativity is encouraged, all rule sets will be based around one of the two established player paths. These are Nobility, and Clergy. Nobles are based around the promotion of rank - usually following the Knight -> Baron -> Earl -> Duke system. The Clergy is based around a similar rank system - Monk -> Priest -> Bishop -> Archbishop - and the exercise of political power. Note that in this time period it is typical for clergy to have authority far over their actual power. Births Each character can request a birth roll once a week using the following table: No Physician (literally on your own without medical assistance) - Free Chance of Wife's survival: 12/20 Chance of Child's survival: 10/20 Poor Physician - XYZ needs a value Chance of Wife's survival: 14/20 Chance of Child's survival: 12/20 Average Physician - XYZ needs a value Chance of Wife's survival: 16/20 Chance of Child's survival: 14/20 Renowned Physician - XYZ needs a value Chance of Wife's survival: 18/20 Chance of Child's survival: 16/20 King's Physician (reserved only for... Guess who?) - Free Chance of Wife's survival: 19/20 Chance of Child's survival: 17/20 Deaths At the age of 60 main characters will get a weekly death roll with chance of death being 5/20, if rolled for death the mods will give you a moderate amount of time to finish of your epic tale. Heirs Only rolled heirs of your main characters direct line can automatically recieve everything the previous main controlled. All other characters of relation are considered branches of the house and inheritance is up to the King.

Armies:

Rank Based Freedmen: 10 Knight: 50 Barons: 500 Earls: 1000 Dukes: 2000 King: 5000 Rank based troops are always on and require no upkeep. Mercs Simple system of 50 florins per 100 Mercs lasting one year in game.

Items:

Players can purchase whatever item (weapons, armour etc) they want using this formula: 40 Florins = +1 stat (max of +8) Items are taken into account for duels, assassinations, battles and any other situation mods feel they would influence.

Battles:

Battles follow a simple formate as below: Number of troops x D20 roll x Mod RP value (+/- 10) = Battle Score The highest battle score wins the battle, mods will determine the casualties based on the battle scores and RP. The main characters on the losing side will be given death/capture/escape rolls with chances decided by the mods based on the battle scores and RP. The battle roll will be performed AFTER the initial battle RP's have been conducted (planning, leadership, speeches!!, etc) this initial RP will direct their Mod RP value +/-.

Assassinations:

There will be no set in stone assassination rules, instead the assassination RP will be conducted through the mods, who will determine the D20 chances based on the situation, the RP, any items used (and how they are used) and common sense. This D20 chance will remain unseen. Secret assassinations will be performed by the assassin RPing through the mods via PM's, the mods will then post in the relevant thread removing the identity of the assassin. The victims will be given the chance to RP their response (WARNING MODS WILL HEAVILY USE THE NO ONE POST WIN ideal here, so no "and he jumped out the window and escaped into the darkness where the assassin couldn't find him" type posts, use common sense, make it fun). The mod will then do the actual roll at the climax of the RP (remember mods like RP too, the better it is the more secret brownie points lol).

Duels

Duel rules will be left up to the people involved, if no agreement can be reached then the mods will use the age old first to three roll off affected by items.

As you can probably tell, this rule set is designed to be totally minimalistic, the game is yours to play and RP and to enjoy. Mods will direct most events simply by the merit of the situation and the RP involved, hardly anything will be predetermined or predictable and decisions are final, hopefully creating that element of risk and RP goodness.

No Money?

It has also been suggested to do away with money altogether, please discuss this also, it would simply serve to remove the income sections with power soley based on rank. Births etc would just be rank based as well.

More Structured (mature? lol) Rules

Economy

Starting Amount

At the Beginning of the Game or when registering you start with a set amount. This is dependant on your rank. And is figured out by multiplying your income by five. This applies to promotions as well - note it applies to what you will have once promoted. Example: James Ramsden is a Knight with a Yearly Income of 10 Florins, he will start out with 50.( 10*5 )

Income

Un-landed: Knights: 5 Florins per Year. Freedman: 1 Florins per Year. Clergy: The Cardinal/Archbishop: 50 The Bishops: 40 The Priests: 10 The Monks: 5 Landed Nobles: All regions net a base tax income of 10 florins. Example: James Ramsden is a Baron with a Yearly Income of 20 Florins, because he have two regions.

Trade

A Trade route may be established between regions. This trade route gives you 20% of the two regions wealth (region wealth can vary, but will average at 10 florins each. for example two regions with 10 florin wealth will provide an extra 4 florins each year). A market is needed to establish a trade route between regions. See below

Taxes

If you have a direct vassal - defined as someone who has a direct oath to serve you. I.E. a Baron to an Earl. But not the Baron to the King, unless you are one of the kings barons. - Then you may set a tax on them. This is an in-game tax, and will be enforced in-game. The rate may be whatever is deemed suitable. Example: James Ramsden is a Baron with a Yearly Income of 20 Florins. He has to pay a ten percent tax to his liege Earl Montgomery. Which is 2 Florins per year. He can chose to pay this, or deal with the consequences of not doing so.

Characters

Character Creation

A standard format will be used to register characters. Name: Age: Origin: Biography: Child Trait: The Moderators will keep a record such as; James Ramsden Adult, Wild Child and Traits Given because of his RP(He have none in this demonstration). Duels: 12 (He get two from Wild Child) Tactics: 1,0 Tax: 1,0 Traits will be explained below.

Traits

Traits are determined by two factors, age, and player chosen. Age traits are as follow. Child(0-12): Duels: 5 Tactics: 0,5 Tax: 0,5 Teenager(13-18) Duels: 8 Tactics: 0,8 Tax: 0,8 Adult(19-50) Duels: 10 Tactics: 1,0 Tax: 1,0 Aged(50-) Duels: 5 Tactics: 1,4 Tax: 1,2 Character Traits: Players chooses one of these. Wild Child: Duels + 2 War Minded: Tactics + 0,2 Diligent Child: Tax + 0,2 (Example: This multiply his Tax income with 0,2. A Baron with one Region get 12 instead of 10 florins.) Smart: Tax + 0,1. Tactics + 0,1. Brave: Tactics, + 0,1. Duels + 1)

Professions

While a large degree of creativity is encouraged, all rule sets will be based around one of the two established player paths. These are Nobility, and Clergy. Nobles are based around the promotion of rank - usually following the Knight -> Baron -> Earl -> Duke system - and the assumption of land. A loose rule being more lands make you more powerful. The Clergy is based around a similar rank system - Monk -> Priest -> Bishop -> Archbishop - and the exercise of political power. Note that in this time period it is typical for clergy to have authority far over their actual power.

Ranks

To keep some level of game play balance each rank is restricted to a maximum number of regions (they can have less, this is to be determined in-game). Note, this is simply the rule structure, the actual ranks can be called whatever the king determines them to be. Whether it is Counts and Marquis, or whatever other terms that the game produces. King: 5 Regions. Duke: 4 Regions. Earl: 3 Regions. Baron: 2 Regions.

Purchasables

Cities, Castles And Buildings

Cities and Castles: Each region may be focused on defence or commerce or split between the two. It is entirely at the ruling lords whim. An unchanged region give 10 florins each year and provides a levy of one hundred men. Split Region: 10 tax, 100 levy. Military Region: 5 tax, 150 levy. Economic Region: 15 tax, 50 levy. Buildings: Market - Cost 200 florins in each region. + 5 to the regions' Tax, enables trade. Barrack - Cost 300 florins in each region. + 50 to the regions' Levy. Enable the Training of Trained Infantry and Archers. Stables - Cost 100 florins in each region. Enables you to make 100 of you're men Cavalry. This doubles their worth, in an straight up battle but their greatest or downfall will depend on how you RP them in the fight.(You can't make Levy into Cavalry) Castle Upgrades. Basic Castle: Cost 50. + 0,1 to Commander Tactics. Upgrade Castle: Cost 100. + 0,2 to Commander Tactics. Upgrade Castle: Cost 150. + 0,3 to Commander Tactics. Upgrade Castle: Cost 200. + 0,4 to Commander Tactics. And so on.. Each building can only be made once in each region. And will always be destroyed at the change of lands.

Weapons and Armour

Weapons: +0 - free +1 - 40 florins - may be used with a shield +2 - 60 florins - may be used with a shield +3 - 80 florins - may be used with a shield +4 - 100 florins - may be used with a shield +5 - 110 florins - may be used with a shield +8 - 140 florins - this require two hands. Shields: may be used in combination with weapons and other armour +1 Shield - 40 florins +2 Shield - 60 florins +3 Shield - 80 florins Armour: Leather:+1 - 10 florins +2 - 20 florins Chain-mail: +3 - 35 florins +4 - 50 florins Plate/Scale: +5 - 60 +6 - 100 florins

Mercenaries

Mercenaries may be available for hire. Mercenary companies can be variable in price and size. A request to hire mercs can be made either in the purchases thread, or directly to a moderator. Mercenaries companies are of a D20x10 size, and will cost either 25 or 50 florins. (determined by a 50:50 dice roll). This cost remains stable and must be paid each year otherwise the company will disband.

Training Men

A barracks can be purchased which enables you to recruit and maintain professional men. You can recruit 50 men for 5 florins. Each of these groups cost one florin each year to maintain. When recruited it must be specified as to if they are archers to infantry. A Stables is needed to recruit cavalry. You must already have 50 men, and can train them into cavalry for 5 florins. They then cost 2 florins to maintain.

Battles and Special Rules

Battles

Battles are decided via a set formula based on army number, composition and commander skills, all affected by a random D20 roll. Players who intend to battle are to post a battle thread in the Battlegrounds subforum, in the OP the attacker is to detail their army based on their vault thread and any allies vault threads. The defender is also required to post their army and any allies armies details based on their own vault threads. Players armies will be composed of the following types of troops based on the counties they control and their buildings: Levy - Are raised troops from the counties controll, either 50, 100, 150 or 200 per region depending on the regions centres and buildings (see Castles/Cities/Buildings rules) Infantry - Are purchased and maintained troops via the Barracks building. Archers - Are purchased and maintained troops via the Barracks building. Cavalry - Are upgraded Infantry/Archers via the Stables building. Each type of troops has a battle effectiveness(BE) per man: Levies - 0.8 BE per man Infantry - 1 BE per man Archers - 0.5 BE per man Cavalry - 2 BE per man At the start of each battle before the main battle roll is performed, either sides archers get a volley, the mods will roll a D10 were 1 = 10% and 10 = 100% determining the percentage of the archers arrows that scores a kill/maim. The kills are spread evenly over the enemy army. With the new figures effected by the archers volleys, the mods will perform the final roll. First tally up the total BE of the army (Levy numbers x 0.8 + Infantry numbers x 1 + Archers numbers x 0.5 + Cavalry numbers x 2) This total army BE is then effected by the commanders tactics trait and the random D20 roll by this formula: (Commanders Tactics + D20 roll) x Total Army BE = Battle Score The winner of the battle is which ever side has the largest Battle Score, the casualties is determined by the mods in relation to each battle score and RP.

Assassination

To be debated, though the old rules served well?

This is a more refined structured set, based on some suggestions for a bit more depth from the community, it is designed to be simple yet add to the game, giving more set options for players to develop based on the above without the airy fairyness of the super duper simple rules.

Hopefully I haven't missed anything or Narf/Raglan will kill me, so there it is please discuss, rip into, flesh out and give us some direction. After a bit of debate we will move to polls and then game time.

Any questions are welcome with nothing to small to ask about, I personally want as much transparency on this as possible, its everyones game after all.

Have a good day/evening/night/morning.

Cheers
- Stildawn

[Watercress]

I've always found Money and Items to be completely pointless to the game and merely busywork for the players, when they could be doing RP, the true core of the game. They should be removed and never restored. Down with the System!

Although, having said that, most of the rest of the rules, such as Births and Assassination, which help guide RP, are helpful and should be included.

[Ganbarenippon]

I have to be honest. I'm a little tipsy right now (having just had a very successful meeting/pitch at work and a very successful celebration afterwards) but from what I see I like the minimalist rules. GoT already has the more thorough rule set in place (and a very similar theme) so why not go for something a little different? That way we can all play both games and not feel as though we're doing the same thing under a different name. It might help both RPG's to come along.

[Raglan]

I have to be honest. I'm a little tipsy right now (having just had a very successful meeting/pitch at work and a very successful celebration afterwards) but from what I see I like the minimalist rules. GoT already has the more thorough rule set in place (and a very similar theme) so why not go for something a little different? That way we can all play both games and not feel as though we're doing the same thing under a different name. It might help both RPG's to come along.

haha, GoT took most of their rule set from gstk!

I agree, i mostly like the minimal rules. Though the battles are definitely something i like from narfs rules. They could be easily adapted to the no money version.

[m_1512]

I like it. Especially the maximum holdings. But what happens if a King holds more than 5 directly?

[Narf]

First. Fantastic job. I was sleeping and this is great, love different time zones when working like this.

Seconds Equipment is not finished at all, it is still WIP just as much as assassination rules are. So keep that in mind.

Third the child modifiers will be deleted as one can't play as them.

Fourth, In the building it should be added 'When Defending' to the castle upgrades, as they only apply in a Defence.

@ M If he have more than 5 then they are without any worth.

[m_1512]

No negative effects.

[Narf]

Well yes. you don't get tax from vassal players which could have had it.

[Lord William]

CdeC support option 1


lol

[Celsius]

Gawd, i c tht da traitsssss r still ther.

[Narf]

They are not.

[Celsius]

I was referring to the "mature" rule set

[Narf]

Me too.

[Lord William]

Narf, there is a subtitle with the title traits


the goal was to make this as simple as possible and option 2 just isnt cutting it, way to many useless rules

[Dead Sun]

I am a fan of the basic rules up above, but I actually do like the maximum regions idea and the purchasing of certain buildings. However, it's the actual battle rules I'm finding myself hard to comprehend. Why are Archers less battle-effective? Are they cheaper/twice as many than trained levy? Because you'd obviously just go for trained levy every time then. Besides, it's a little inaccurate, what with archery in England and Wales being a supreme tradition, proven to be very battle-effective. And does battle-effectiveness work in co-ordination with commander tactics? Does the purchasing of more powerful castle upgrades (commander tactics) stack with every battle you go into, or is it reserved solely for defending against a siege? And wouldn't this game then turn into a highly strategic game? It's been expressed that strategy would not, and has not, worked.

[Stildawn]

I am a fan of the basic rules up above, but I actually do like the maximum regions idea and the purchasing of certain buildings. However, it's the actual battle rules I'm finding myself hard to comprehend. Why are Archers less battle-effective? Are they cheaper/twice as many than trained levy? Because you'd obviously just go for trained levy every time then. Besides, it's a little inaccurate, what with archery in England and Wales being a supreme tradition, proven to be very battle-effective. And does battle-effectiveness work in co-ordination with commander tactics? Does the purchasing of more powerful castle upgrades (commander tactics) stack with every battle you go into, or is it reserved solely for defending against a siege? And wouldn't this game then turn into a highly strategic game? It's been expressed that strategy would not, and has not, worked.

Archers get the added bonus of a power kill roll before the combat roll takes place, if you have say 500 archers, you have the chance to inflict 500 kills without taking any loses, before the actual battle rolls, I beleive their 0.5 BE is to balance that.

Castles commander tactics are only on defence as Narf said above.

[Narf]

no man limiting the amount of regions just crushes all ambition, it crushes the idea of amassing power and taking the throne

This is true with both rule sets. One limits people with each Rank. Done.
The other is more diverse but limits with a maximum of regions.

I am a fan of the basic rules up above, but I actually do like the maximum regions idea and the purchasing of certain buildings. However, it's the actual battle rules I'm finding myself hard to comprehend. Why are Archers less battle-effective? Are they cheaper/twice as many than trained levy? Because you'd obviously just go for trained levy every time then. Besides, it's a little inaccurate, what with archery in England and Wales being a supreme tradition, proven to be very battle-effective. And does battle-effectiveness work in co-ordination with commander tactics? Does the purchasing of more powerful castle upgrades (commander tactics) stack with every battle you go into, or is it reserved solely for defending against a siege? And wouldn't this game then turn into a highly strategic game? It's been expressed that strategy would not, and has not, worked.

1# Archer are Half because they get to shoot. It all stands up there.
2# Battle Effectiveness is the combination of your Generals Tactics Ability and the Battle Strenght of your forces.
3#Only Defence. The Castle can't help you if you are not in the castle.
4#No it is all very simple. We have never had a system that simple while I've been playing.
5#Worked perfect when I played.

Narf, there is a subtitle with the title traits

It is not the traits as we have seen them in the past. Not as any we've ever had. They are chosen when you make your character and there's only 5 to chose from.
Much simpler. It's just a part of making a character.

[Lord William]

no man limiting the amount of regions just crushes all ambition, it crushes the idea of amassing power and taking the throne

[Dead Sun]

It actually kind of works like the Crusader Kings 2 system. You can de jure own say 12 lands, but if you're a duke you only gain the income of 4 and you should serve out the other 8 to loyal vassals. They're all yours, and they all serve you.

[Pinkerton]

It actually kind of works like the Crusader Kings 2 system. You can de jure own say 12 lands, but if you're a duke you only gain the income of 4 and you should serve out the other 8 to loyal vassals. They're all yours, and they all serve you.

This is smart