Tips on using missile cavalry?

[klc123]

I searched and there was no recent threads on this.
I'm currently playing a campaign with the Moors, and at the beginning they heavily rely on their desert cavalry (javelins). I really have no idea how to get the best out of these guys. I have been using armies of only them and a general or two for heavy cavalry, as some have said this works well in single player, but I don't know what I am doing wrong.

I always turn skirmish off because I like managing my troops manually, plus with jav cav their range is too short for it to work well. Is there ever a time when it's good to use or is pausing and using manual commands always more effective?

Also with regards to fire at will, I have always turned it off because they have so little ammo, but this results in me only having one unit throwing javelins at their general all the time, and I feel this reduces their ability some how, because if i circled them completely with all units and then fired at will, I would probably get mass casualties and routs.

As I've said, I try to sent them around the back and attack their weak side/general, I just don't think i do enough with all my units.

How much does height matter? I thought it only increased the range of missile units, and I thought range was a bad thing because the closer you are, the more accurate and deadly they are, or are there other bonus's? I only really struggling to deal with the enemies cavalry, infantry are obviously easy to deal with.

[Silverheart]

With Desert Cavalry, you obviously need to keep their close range and low ammo in consideration, and at that point you seem to be doing well enough (with the "no skirmish or fire at will" thing) but to use them (and any missile cavalry) effectively, you need to maneuver them well enough, too.
The best is, of course, to outflank the enemy and attack them from the rear (where they are most vulnerable to missiles - except for troops who carry shields on their backs), but in order to do this without the interference of enemy cavalry you need to pick them off first.
Personally, I like using a huge chunk of infantry and foot missile troops in defensive formation to lure the enemy in that direction.
While they are moving to engage, my cavalry will ride around their flanks and attack the enemy general and cavalry from the sides (if they are moving while you charge from behind, there´s a risk that the charge might end before they "connect". This doesn´t affect an attack by missile cavalry, of course). Use charger cavalry to make the first attack, and use that opportunity to move your missile cavalry into position right behind the enemy, then retreat with the charger cavalry and attack with missiles.
Typically, this will make them break away from the army to follow your cavalry, at which point you should try to either gather all your missile cavalry in one place (to pepper them with a massive barrage) or you divide your missile cavalry into two (attack them from two directions - they will try to give chase in one direction, and get attacked in the rear by the other. With skirmish mode on, your troops will basically handle themselves once you get the enemy cavalry stuck in this trap).
Of course, it´s way easier to handle this manuevering if you continously pause the game to give the commands, especially with many units of missile cavalry.


After your Desert Cavalry has exhausted their ammo, gather them together with the charger cavalry (the General´s Bodyguard or, since you´re the Moors, why not some Granadine Lancers?) and charge the remaining enemy cavalry from as many directions as possible to demoralize and break them.
Once the cavalry is out of the way, just gather everyone up and charge the remaining enemy with a wide-front assault from behind to cause a mass-rout. Then there´s nothing left to do but mopping up


Regarding the altitude question, you´re correct: standing in a higher position gives your missile troops longer range, and they get lower accuracy the longer away the enemy is.
This offers a useful advantage to foot missile troops, but should be avoided with javelin troops due to their low ammo.
With Desert Cavalry, it´s better to just ride further away from the enemy to avoid getting hit by enemy archers, and not close in until you are in a good position on the flanks or rear.

[klc123]

Thanks for the quick and detailed response, a lot of useful information in there.

I think a large reason of why I am struggling so much is also to do with where I am choosing to fight my battles. For example, one that I really struggled at was when the enemy has 1 General and 5 units of mailed knights, and they positioned them at the bottom of a mountain so I could only get to one side of them, and couldn't get to their back without luring them out.

Maybe I just need to practice skirmishing a lot more, to prevent me from losing any men. I enjoy fighting battles when the odds are massively against me (major reason why I have struggled), because I find it more rewarding when I do win, it makes it more challenging, and I also get more chivalry and heroic victories. This wasn't a problem when I played as western European factions (which is all I had done until now) and with them I became very adapt at taking out armies of thousands with only 6 units of knights. Missile tactics is evidently a completely different way of playing the game.

[tudor93]

What is there to help, HA are the dullest unit in the game, you simply set 'em free like dogs and let 'em rot the enemy out, you don't even need to watch over then, you can go make coffee or something of the likes, then strike with infantry and normal cavalry and rout 'em.

Lol no.

No, about the right side, I'm absolutely sure shields don't cover, even your "military adviser" states that in-game, if you start a battle beside a bridge and the enemy advances first, for the first time.

There were so many debates on this... Just search and you'll find out that this was the conclusion: there is no such thing as 'shielded side' in M2TW.

The best is, of course, to outflank the enemy and attack them from the rear (where they are most vulnerable to missiles - except for troops who carry shields on their backs), but in order to do this without the interference of enemy cavalry you need to pick them off first.

Those shield are just for the looks. They don't have any effect whatsoever.

[klc123]

I have played with them a bit more and found them to be working better. I am not using skirmish mode at all, all I do is position the unit within range and then hit fire at will and let them do the rest, i find this better because sometimes they decide to charge in when you click attack even if they still have ammo (some cav might have run out of ammo and attack I guess). Another thing that has really improved my results is having them face their target when I drag out their formation to get them within range behind the enemy, they seem more accurate and deadly this way.

The ammo thing isn't that much of a problem, even with desert cavalry, if I run out of Ammo, just charge them and another unit into the front and back of the unit they were firing at, and it causes them to rout instantly from being weakened so much already.

Thanks for all the help guys. If anyone has more advice, feel free to post.

[Maklodes]

You've probably already done this, but just in case -- you've built leather tanners and upgraded your desert cavalry's armor, right? The armor jump from nothing to leather/padding is, from my understanding of the tests, both much more economical (600 florin, 2 turn building) and much more effective (0 armor to 4) than any other upgrade in the game. (Compare to upgrading feudal knights from heavy mail to partial plate: 6400 florin 5 turn upgrade (which in turn requires a 2400 florin, 4 turn upgrade of a 1200 florin, 3 turn upgrade of that original 600 florin, 2 turn leather tanner) to get armor from 7 to 8.)

[Vampiresbane]

You should check out this guide called "Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide." It's very thorough.

[Aeratus]

In general, javelin cavalry are relatively weak in the vanilla version of this game.

For example, the desert cavalry has a missile attack of 8, a range of 55, and an ammo count of 8.

On the other hand, the Granandine crossbow cavalry has a missile attack of 7, a range of 120, and an ammo count of 30.

Meanwhile, the mounted crossbows have the same armor piercing properties as the mounted javelin. In the above comparison, it is clear that +1 missile attack (and faster reload) doesn't justify the all other deficiencies. There are some very good javelin cavalry, such as the Polish Nobles, but these units are good because their melee strength is very good.

I always turn skirmish off because I like managing my troops manually, plus with jav cav their range is too short for it to work well. Is there ever a time when it's good to use or is pausing and using manual commands always more effective?

Also with regards to fire at will, I have always turned it off because they have so little ammo, but this results in me only having one unit throwing javelins at their general all the time, and I feel this reduces their ability some how, because if i circled them completely with all units and then fired at will, I would probably get mass casualties and routs.

Disabling fire at will is a good idea with javelin cavalry, I think.

The disadvantage with skirmish mode is that your cavalry will turn their back against the enemy too quickly. Firing with the back turned against the enemy reduces accuracy by quite a bit.

[klc123]

I've already read through that guide, I found it useful, but it seems more orientated toward bow cav than javelin. Anyone else got more tips?

[Vampiresbane]

I've already read through that guide, I found it useful, but it seems more orientated toward bow cav than javelin. Anyone else got more tips?

If you're trying to use javelin cav exclusively, I've found out of all missile type cavalry they require a infantry army base the most. This is because of their short range and low ammo. While those javelins can take out priority target faster (ie generals, heavy cav, and heavy infantry), you HAVE to make sure those 'expensive' javelins are used as effeciently as possible. In order to do this, you have to hold your target with something. Some folks like using heavy cav, I personally like using cheaper and more plentiful militia infantry.

As for making an all javelin army worthwhile, you can, but it'll never be as effectively as a mixed army. This is even true with an all horse archer army in my opinion. It's too easy to counter. Your enemy just needs to mass archer infantry.

[Silverheart]

If you're trying to use javelin cav exclusively, I've found out of all missile type cavalry they require a infantry army base the most. This is because of their short range and low ammo. While those javelins can take out priority target faster (ie generals, heavy cav, and heavy infantry), you HAVE to make sure those 'expensive' javelins are used as effeciently as possible. In order to do this, you have to hold your target with something. Some folks like using heavy cav, I personally like using cheaper and more plentiful militia infantry.

That is correct, and worth repeating.
With javelin cavalry, it is vital to not waste ammunition on anything other than high-priority targets like generals and heavy cavalry. Therefore, it is far better to turn off the "fire at will" and try to ride around enemy archers (and other units trying to intercept your horsemen) than to stand and waste valuable javelins on thinning out a crowd of worthless peasants - you should take care of those after you´ve routed the enemys´ elites!

[klc123]

Ok, so fire at will should be off until the units are in position to cause the most damage to the enemy, but what about skirmish mode? Is it more practical to use skirmish mode when trying to manage 6 or more units of missile cav?

[Kaiser Nonsense]

What is there to help, HA are the dullest unit in the game, you simply set 'em free like dogs and let 'em rot the enemy out, you don't even need to watch over then, you can go make coffee or something of the likes, then strike with infantry and normal cavalry and rout 'em.

[Sitalkes]

Try these two:

How to use javelin cavalry: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188517
Cavalry Guide

[Aeratus]

Shields do work both left and right in M2TW, at 50% efficiency compared to the front.

This differs from RTW, where shields did not work on the right-side. It would not surprise me that the military advisor is incorrect, because M2TW is derived from RTW, and they probably changed the shield mechanics during the game development.

[-CruZade-]

Use them to assault your enemies flanks, wear your enemies main battleline out before sending your troops and heavy cav to finish them off, or to assasinate the enemy commander.

Or you could simply use your light missile cav as a decoy to lure your enemy into a deadly ambush by your other hidden troops. This strategy was used by ones of Europes most supreme horsemen, the Magyars.

[klc123]

I dunno, yes they are armour piercing, but their lack of ammo and range makes them inferior to horse archers in every single way, it doesn't help with the fact that they are awful at charging in afterwards.

[Silverheart]

I dunno, yes they are armour piercing, but their lack of ammo and range makes them inferior to horse archers in every single way, it doesn't help with the fact that they are awful at charging in afterwards.

That is true, they are very specialized, and more adept for minor skirmishes than full-size battles against well equipped enemies. But then again, that´s exactly what they are designed for - skirmishing and pinpoint attacks against the enemys´ vital troops (like generals, heavy cavalry or elephants).

All in all, Desert Cavalry are supposed to be used with support, either from foot troops (which can close in on enemies and draw their attention form the outflanking Desert Cavalry) or horse archers (which can harass enemy flanks and distract enemy archers or cavalry).
Their poor charging abilities means that you must also make sure to either use a large amount of them (to scare the enemy into rout quickly with sheer numbers) or use them in tandem with some melee cavalry (which can charge in to finish off decimated enemy elites, or rout the enemys´ flanking soldiers, when the Desert Cavalry are out of missiles)

[Aeratus]

All the "best" javelin cavalry are very good melee cavalry, so the javelin is more of a bonus feature.

The top heavy javelin cavalry is the the Polish Noble. The polish noble has 11/17 in melee stats (attack/defense), which means that its melee strength exceeds that of Feudal knights (10/16 in attack/defense) in terms of base stats. Furthermore, due to its very high attack stat of 11, the Polish Noble has a very good charge. The Polish Noble also has a faster movement speed than the Feudal Knight. For this reason, the Polish Noble is actually by far the best heavy cavalry in the early game in terms of melee ability (aside from bodyguards, of course) and dominates the battlefield. Ironically, sometimes having javelins is a hindrance to ease of using these units to their full extent.

The top light javelin cavalry is the Jinetes. Their overall attack/defense stat is equal to that of the mailed knight. However, the Jinetes is mounted on a fast pony, which means that it moves faster than the mailed knight, which is mounted on a heavy horse. Therefore, the Jinetes is one of the best melee light cavalry units in the game, and certainly the best light cavalry in the early game in terms of melee strength.

So in summary, look at javelin cavalry as more of melee cavalry, where the javelin is more of an added bonus ability rather than the main ability. As to the desert cavalry, unfortunately, this unit as a whole isn't that good.